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Featured Salvation in Two separate and Distinct Steps

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jul 31, 2023.

  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Here are the typical questions used to defend a mistaken view of the Good News.
    If Christ ransomed all mankind, why is all mankind not saved?
    If He was purchased all mankind, why is all mankind not saved.?
    If God is propitiated towards all men, what does He still have against them?
    If all men have been redeemed, why is all mankind not saved?
    If God is reconciled to all men, why do we need to beg for people to be reconcilied?
    If only those placed in Christ are saved, what is the criteria for being so placed?
    Why are those so placed not purchased (ransomed), redeemed, and reconciled?

    Let us assume these questions are not simply an effort to deny truth, but an earnest effort to understand a very different understanding of God's actions to bring the lost into His kingdom.

    Was the result of God ransoming mankind the salvation of mankind? No, of course not. What was the result? Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world., all of humanity.

    Mankind was purchased, both those saved or to be saved, and those never to be saved. Christ's Substitutionary Sacrifice ransomed, purchased, bought, and put mankind under the New Covenant rather than the Old Covenant.

    God was not propitiated toward any person when Christ died, but is propitiated toward those He has put spiritually into Christ. Thus the Gospel's two steps are:

    (1) Christ became the means of salvation when He gave His life as a ransom for all, and

    (2) God chooses believers whose faith He credits as righteousness, and puts them spiritually into Christ.

    Does this mean all people had been redeemed? Nope. All people have been bought, ransomed, but not redeemed which refers to being transferred out of the realm of darkness into Christ's spiritual body.

    Does scripture say all mankind has been reconciled? Nope. God is reconciling humanity one sinner at a time when He transfers them into Christ.

    Did I "refuse to say" what the criterion is for putting someone in Christ. No. I said:

    If God credits a person's faith in the Truth as righteousness, then He puts them in Christ.

    If a person has been put into Christ, God has been propitiated toward that individual.
    If a person has been put into Christ, they have been redeemed.
    If a person has been put into Christ, they have come to Christ.
    If a person has been put into Christ, they have been given to Christ.
    If a person has been put into Christ, they have been justified by the washing of regeneration.
    If a person has been put into Christ, they have been made righteous.
    If a person has been put into Christ, they have been made alive together with Christ.
    If a person has been put into Christ, they are then predestined to adoption, the redemption of their bodies.
    If a person has been put into Christ, they have been saved from the penalty of sin, positional sanctification.

    Propitiation = means of salvation
    Redemption = act of salvation, the transfer into Christ.
    Reconciliation = the result of salvation, being at one with God.
     
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Colossians 1:13
    Who rescued us from the power of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son of His love.

    Here we see God taking the second step to redeem a person under the power of darkness, by transferring their individual spirit into Christ's spiritual body, the kingdom of His Son.
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    If a person has been put into Christ, they have been given to Christ.
    John 6:37: “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I certainly will not cast out.​

    Here we see the second action of God's redemptive plan, putting individuals of His choice spiritually into Christ. Why does relocation seem to be in view, rather than mental assent? The result is the people given are then located within Christ as Christ will not cast them out. All in Adam die, but all in Christ will be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:22
     
  4. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    One night when I was giving the devotions in AWANA - I had written out a one-dollar check (I rarely carry cash) I held it up an asked who wants this. Of course all the kids raised their hands. One girl came up and took it!

    Yes, Christ has provided the gift of salvation - but until we accept it - it is not ours.
     
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  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yes, but our accepting the offer does not result in redemption. Refer to the second and third soils of Matthew 13.
     
  6. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    But none of us desire to be saved. - seek after God, no not one per Paul in Romans

    salvation is something God does to us and for us ie, the new birth (regeneration) which leads to repentance and faith.
     
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  7. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I am just curious, if no one seeks God and no one can trust in God unless they are born again by God and He has to give them faith so they will believe. Why did Christ have to go to the cross? You're saved before you even trust in Him according to your theology and God only gives faith to those He has pre-selected. So all the build up about the Messiah coming that would save the world is, according to your theology, just theater.

    The reality is the under your theology our desire to seek God or to be saved has zero impact on the outcome.
    For the absolutely elect must have been saved without him;
    and the non-elect cannot be saved by him

    So the reality, as seen from your theology, is just eat, drink and be merry as you have nothing to do with being saved. Either you won the lottery or you did not and how would you ever know into which group you fell. So why all the theater of the OT or NT.

    Now you should be able to give me a reasonable answer to those questions.
     
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  8. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    Was Paul seeking God on the Road to Damascus? No, he was killing christians

    was Abram seeking God? No, he was a true pagan

    you are correct, we had absolutely
    Nothing to do w being born again. The Spirit does as He wills according to Jesus in John 3

    the New Birth sets us free from the constraints of sin and rebellion. John 3



    we only seek God because God stirs our hearts w conviction. See John 6

    Christs ministry was def not theatre. He demonstrated Gods love towards sinners, made an atonement on the Cross, and gave gifts to men. Eph 4:7-8
     
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  9. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    But you did not answer why Christ had to go to the cross under your theological view. We are told in the scriptures that we are saved by faith in the risen Christ. But according to your theology that faith is given to you after you are saved.

    So I ask again, why did Christ have to go to the cross?

    Since we are not Paul or Abraham the comment while true is not relevant to the question is it? But the bible does indicate that we will be held responsible for how we deal with the information God gives us so God must conclude that we can actually seek Him and find Him.

    Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

    Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

    This is what the bible shows us, God expects us to seek Him and He has provide the reason why we would do so {John 16:8} and will judge us for how we respond to that prompting.

    So we can see from a biblical perspective that it was necessary for Christ to be crucified and to raise again. {John 3:14-18} But form the perspective of your theological view the question is why would that be necessary?

    The reality is the under your theology our desire to seek God or to be saved has zero impact on the outcome.
    For the absolutely elect must have been saved without him;
    and the non-elect cannot be saved by him.

    I agree the biblical crucifixion was not theatre. But under your theology it has been made to be just that. You have denied the necessity of a risen Christ.

    Loraine Boettner
    "A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved.

    R.C. Sproul
    If there’s one phrase that captures the essence of reformed theology, it is the little phrase,regeneration precedes faith.
     
  10. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    To make an atonement for sin
     
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  11. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Yes the atonement and resurrection of Jesus Christ is important and that is a biblical response. But you have not answered the question from the calvinist point of view. Under your theology it is not your trust in the risen Christ that saves but rather whether you were pre-chosen. Your theology has you saved before you even believe. {see Boettner, Sproul post # 9}

    I have seen it claimed that calvinism is the gospel so if that is true then you must be able to provide clear contextual evidence that fits your theology.

    So I ask again, from the calvinist perspective, why did Christ have to go to the cross?
     
  12. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    When one is born again - Yes Faith is expressed 100% of the time

    it is a wake up call
     
  13. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Still not answering the question are you? Canned answers are your stock in trade. Try giving one that actually addresses the question.

    So I ask again, from the calvinist perspective, why did Christ have to go to the cross?
     
  14. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    It boils down to our understanding of God, Grace and the WOG

    I believe that man is truly at the mercy of God (the New Birth to change our hearts) until God does something, man can do nothing.

    you believe that man is ultimately at the mercy of his own will and that our wills can manipulate God into saving us.

    Ultimately, when God changes our hearts, He frees us (implants faith into our hearts) to believe the Gospel. Until then, man is in bondage and dead in trespasses and sin Eph 2:1
     
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  15. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    You are still not dealing with the problem of calvinism which I have pointed out to you a number of times.

    So I ask again, from the calvinist perspective, why did Christ have to go to the cross? Why is that so hard for you to answer? If your view is biblical you should have clear contextual support for it. Do you?

    Actually what you have said re what I believe is a total mischaracterization.The bible, which I agree with, says we are saved by God because we believe in His son. Calvinism says you are saved before you even believe in the son and even have to be given faith. So who has the false gospel?

    Come on @Marooncat79 support your view from scripture or admit that it is just a philosophical construct.
     
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    This false claim is made over and over again, but scripture says people seek God as a refuge, Psalms 14, seek eternal life, Matthew 19:16, some Jews pursued righteousness by works, Romans 9:31, and so forth.
     
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    This post, in the link, offers the bogus argument that by reading between the lines, the inability to believe unless enabled by irresistible grace can be found. Twaddle.

    Can a person come to faith in God or Christ unless they have heard and learned from God's revelation? Nope Does this teach the need for enablement by irresistible grace? Nope

    Was the rich young ruler seeking eternal life? Yes. Was he willing to trust fully in God, or was he unwilling to set aside worldly treasure?

    How are the many who seek the narrow way that leads to life unable to find it if they were enabled by irresistible grace to seek it?

    Bottom line: Romans 4:23-25 clearly teaches God credits the faith of individuals who believe God raised Jesus from the dead, thus teaching lost individuals can come to faith, but only the "few" whose faith is credited "find the narrow path that leads to life."
     
  19. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    Show me 1 post I made denying the resurrection.


    Clue: it has never happened
     
  20. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    Again to appease the wrath of God
     
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