Salvation of the Soul (purchased possession)

Whoa! This is getting pretty jumpy, folks (no pun intended, JJump). I'd sure like to know how each of you reconcile it with 1 Corinthians 2:1-16 (read it especially in the Amplified Bible).

Maybe each of you could go read this doctrinal statement, then rewrite it in accordance with your own belief system. While producing a lot of zingers,

http://www.cmalliance.org/whoweare/doctrine.jsp

the process oughta slow things down......

BTW, Jump, I rarely read KJV. I use NASB, NIV, NEB, AB, even TLB, Die Gute Nachricht, Die Luther Bibel, and some others. At one time I had 15 references, but now they are all online, so my book case library has given way to the internet library of bibles, commentaries, dictionaries, etc. I've worn out several bibles.

Did you hear the one about the three preachers? See, they were..........

O --- I forgot --- no standup. :laugh:

 

I call your attention to 1 Corinthians 2:1-16, in whatever translation you choose. You simply cannot get around the fact that if all scripture is spiritually discerned (and it is) then it is IMPOSSIBLE for those who spiritually discern it to disagree. That being the case, debate about the proper interpretation of scripture is ridiculous. It puts to rest ALL the prophets and their prophecies from the 19th and 20th centuries. They are simply bogus. Anyone with NEW insight into scripture offers at the very best human interpretation. The conclusion is that disagreements over the interpretation of a biblical text are bogus, to put it mildly. No authentic, born-again, washed-in-the-blood-of-the-Lamb Christian who spiritually interprets scripture can be wrong. Read this paragraph again.

Definition: Sola Scriptura

"A Latin term meaning 'scripture alone.' This doctrine says that scripture alone is the primary and absolute source of authority, the final court of appeal, for all doctrine and practice. It holds that the Bible is infallible, that it is sufficient, and that it is clear."

Just think what this truth does to the multipled thousands of denominations!!

Bottom line: It is the Holy Spirit that provides the interpretation of infallible, clear scripture. The Holy Spirit is not going to convey erroneous information. The Holy Spirit working with you is the same one who works with me. Got that? He isn't going to tweak one scripture for you, another for me. We all get precisely the same interpretation, UNLESS......... UNLESS..........

Our interpretation is mental, intellectual, rather than spiritual. Unless much learning has made us mad. Unless brain is getting in the way of God's revelation to 'usward' (that's KJV talk).

NOW .... let the debate begin about who is spiritual and who is not, realizing that on the one hand we will have the possibility of a correct interpretation, and on the other, a bogus interpretation. Two different interpretations of the same passage is IMPOSSIBLE when the Holy Spirit provides the interpretation!

Maybe we could have a debate about who is MORE spiritual......... Nah. That would take us back to square one. "God talks to me more than he does you!" "He does not!" "He does too!" "He does not" ......

As told by Justin Lewis, a Toronto story-teller, a rabbi asks Elijah, "When will the Messiah come?" Elijah answers, "Go ask him yourself." "Where is he?" "He's a beggar at the gates of the city of Rome. He's covered in sores." The other beggars at the gates change their bandages all at once, but the Messiah changes his one at a time, so he can move quickly if he gets called for Messiah duty. The rabbi finds him at the gates and asks, "Master, when will you come?" "Today." Nothing happens, and the rabbi goes back to Elijah for an explanation. Elijah says, "The beggar was alluding to the verse in psalms, `Today, if you would hear God's voice...' "

Clearly, revelation, or hearing the Messiah, requires listening, just as faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Sometimes, Krakofsky's speaker hears too much and becomes confused:

"When the apparatus of the mind is colliding
like bumper cars at the fair
it is impossible to create anything
out of the chaos...."

At other times, he resembles Adele Wiseman, whom he quotes as saying: "I enter books as I enter days -- with respect and hope." In "Rearranging the Bookshelves", he tries to forge a coherent philosophy for himself but discovers that he is happiest in the hodge-podge of ideas and books he has collected over the years: "I will allow old and current feuds to dance where they sit...let the shelves shake in my own image in disharmony and disorganized delight."

Thus spake the debaters, shelves all a-tremble.

 

Your ramblings make no sense. You gripe about a person not posting Scriputre in their responses, but when someone does you just ignor it anyway, so what' the point Bob?

Nobody said or made any claim that you thought salvation didn't exist. The point is that the structure of Ephesians 2:8-9 is that salvation is a one-time event in someone's past that the result of that event lasts out into the future and is apart from works. That totally negates EVERY argument that you bring up. Salvation is not based on a person's obedience or fruit production. That is just plain and simple false teaching according to Scripture.

And another example of Bob's selective reading. Bob I said I didn't include any Scripture, because I've already been over Scripture with you in a PM situation. Not need to rehash what you already disagree with - is there? You all must just have nothing better to do than to go around in circles.

More illogical arguments from the "soul already saved" side. Okay if you are right please show me in Scripture where is says the souls is saved "past" tense. If you can't produce that Scripture then you are now "arguing from the void" of what Scripture does OT say to make your case INSTEAD of coming up with a text that says "soul saved" in the past.

Give me a break. It's pretty sad the lows that you all sink to to hold on to "your" doctrines.

You know Scripture also says come let us reason together. Not everything in Scripture is always spelled out word for word. There is nowhere in Scripture where the Trinity is spelled out word for word, yet very few people deny that it is correct doctrine. Again your arguments are lame at best.

Understanding salvation and who was being dealt with and putting two and two together we come to the understanding that those that were referred to as lost sheep were in fact already saved in the past. Jesus came not seeking to give them eternal salvation. That had already been taken care of. He came offering them a place in His kingdom.

Now that's Scripture. Do I need to give you chapter and verse so that you can't accuse me of not using Scripture.

 

J Jump has never denied that a soul can be saved via the Gospel - has he?. He simply argues that a soul can be lost. Arguing as you have done that Christ came to save souls is not disproving his case unless you are also arguing that once saved they must remain saved.

I stand corrected - J. Jump DOES DENY that the soul is ever saved prior to the 2nd coming EVEN in the case of Eph 2:8-10 he still denies it.

Bottom line - I was giving J Jump too much credit by arguing that he had a leg to stand on in using texts like Matt 18, John 15, Romans 11 showing the "fallen state" of one who was at one time FORGIVEN and IN Christ to mean "soul lost but spirit saved". As he and you (Steaver) have both pointed out - he denies having that leg to stand on as well.

In Christ,

Bob

 

We DO have "ONCE FOR ALL time" statements in the NT (Heb 10 for example speaking of the sacrifice of Christ - and also Heb 9) -- just not in Eph 2 and NOT in reference to individual salvation.

IF you DID have a "saved ONCE FOR ALL TIME" reference for individual salvation you surely would be wise to quote it - instead of taking a text WITHOUT the "ONCE for all time" language - such as Eph 2:8-9 and quoting it "instead".

By simply quoting a text that shows salvation to EXIST - you highlight the common ground ALL believe.

But despite that misdirection on your part Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked" still exists. Along with Matt 7 "not everyone who SAYS LORD LORD will enter but those who DO my Father's will" and Romans 2:11-13 "not the HEARERS but the DOERS of the Law will be JUSTIFIED" etc

All texts that you would spin to "soul LOST while spirit saved".

That is not an answer sir. When making a point specific to your argument you have to actually show it IN the text IN the argument. Responding time after time with "non-text" arguments is not addressing the issue. Claiming to have at one time ever used a text does not address it either. you have to actually include the reference in your response as I have done above. Though I have posted it zillions of times - I never tire of pointing out just exactly WHICH texts are debunking the position you have taken.

Are you denying all references to a person being saved in scripture?

Are you claiming that any reference to a person being saved CAN NOT refer to their soul because the soul is "another person entirely"?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Not ONLY can it be shown that a soul that turns to the gospel is saved - but even one who EVANGELIZES such a soul is said to "save their soul".

James 5:20
let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.


Paul writes that in the life of a saved person the spirit AND the soul are in the SAME state and perseverance is required to PRESERVE Them in that saved state.
Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

In the saved state our Soul is "anchored" firmly in Christ - But we just don't find it bent out to the extreme ideas of OSAS.

Hebrews 6:19
This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil,

"Soul Lost while person SAVED" and "Soul Lost while spirit saved" are not found once - no not in all of scripture.

 

The soul is the mind, will, and emotions; one's earthly identity, then, is the soul. The spiritual/physical resurrection of Jesus allowed His identity to be maintained. In that earthly identity He appeared to many after His resurrection. He is, therefore, our model in this "soul" issue.

Jesus was crucified, dead, and buried, rose triumphant over death and the grave, rising to walk in newness of life, spirit, soul, and revitalized body. Those who are raptured and those followers of Christ who die will be reunited in newness of life in spirit, soul, and revitalized body. At the Judgment Seat of Christ, for what are we judged? Our Christian works done while on earth. Having received Christ as Savior, in what manner did we follow Him as Lord? That will be the basis for declaring our position in Heaven.

As I have explained it to friends and relatives, I love to sing solos, and duets with my wife, in church. However, I was called by Christ as a youngster to study music in order to become a minister of music. I, and my family and friends, recognized that call upon my life. In spite of that, I failed to study music. The vocal scholarship I acquired, I never used. The result of my failure?

In Heaven I may get to sing in the choir, but I won't be its director, and someone else will be chosen for solos. Perhaps my wife and I will be permitted to sing duets. Glory!

Spirit, Soul, Body. That's how it works, folks. Whatever my position in Heaven is, God will be glorified.

.......and now this identity has to go buy groceries.

:type: <-------shutting down computer.

 

Bob you must not have an understanding of the Greek language that was used to write the NT then. Because the Greek word used for saved in Ephesians 2:8-9 declares salvation to be a once for all time event. It doesn't matter how much you don't want to believe it remains a fact that is undisputable.

It says you have been saved. It's a past action which the results remain forever. You simply can't change what is there. Why you won't believe that becomes the question.

 

No it doesn't. There is no "irrevokable" tense in Greek employed in Eph 2.

But it is interesting that you need to insert the idea that this is some kind of "tense".

The word for saved in Eph 2:8 in greek - "sozo" means the same in English in terms of rescue and save. A simple example will suffice - To save someone's life by rescuing them from drowning or from fire does not mean they can never die! It does not dictate an irrevocable state of safety RATHER it indicates a PAST action of SAVING.

to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction

1. one (from injury or peril)
   1. to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health
   2. to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue
2. to save in the technical biblical sense
   1. negatively 1b
3. to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment 1b
4. to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the Messianic deliverance

In Christ,

Bob

 

Maybe this type presentation is long overdue. The key is for all of us to sharpen our pencils and put our spiritual caps on.

 

While I agree with you that the idea of soul lost while spirit saved is totally against all that is taught in scripture - I also think that the framing of your argument leaves a hole big enough to drive a truck through it since you are simply looking for "soul saved by the blood of Christ" which does not do enough to isolate the flaws in their doctrine.

 

Not ONLY can it be shown that a soul that turns to the gospel is saved - but even one who EVANGELIZES such a soul is said to "save their soul".

James 5:20
let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.


Paul writes that in the life of a saved person the spirit AND the soul are in the SAME state and perseverance is required to PRESERVE Them in that saved state.
Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

In the saved state our Soul is "anchored" firmly in Christ - But we just don't find it bent out to the extreme ideas of OSAS.

Hebrews 6:19
This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil,

"Soul Lost while person SAVED" and "Soul Lost while spirit saved" are not found once - no not in all of scripture.