Salvation outside of personal faith?

this topic is being hotly debated on an LDS board I frequent. My position is this. We are all, due to the sin of Adam, separated from God's holy nature. This is why Christ was born of a virgin.
What hope then does any baby have? Well, the same hope as all the rest of us, that through the mercy and Grace of God they be brought back to eternal fellowship through the death of Christ.

Remember faith is not some act that we do but a gift of God (Eph 2) this gift can be freely given to all.

 

LDS? As in Latter Day Saints? As in Mormons? Whoo-boy, are you messing witht he wrong ones as far as any doctrine is concerned...

In Christ,
Trotter

 

maybe, but as far as God is concerned they are no more or less loss than anyone else. I am required by Scripture to be a witness...so...

paul

 

Trotter,

You said, "I believe that God does have a way for those billions that you mentioned."

So, what is that way?

Also, I understand the point you are making, and your post is a good one. Still, your conclusion is not what those verses say. They say that the doers of the law will be justified, and justified means forgiven and pardoned.

It's not sufficient for me to say that I cannot understand God's purposes and let that be the reason that I do not try to find answers to difficult questions. This one that we're dicussing is too troubling not to try to find an answer to. And I do believe God has given the answer in such verses as we've discussed.

Questions of God's justice and mercy are vitally important to me because if I couldn't believe that God was just and merciful, I couldn't believe in God at all.

 

Michael,

True, those who do the Law, and keep it, could be justified. But the problem is, no man can keep the Law! There are denominations that teach their people to keep the Law, in addition to being saved. But the Bible tells us that if you keep the whole Law and stumble on one point that you are guilty of it all.

Man cannot keep the Law because of sin. And it is sin the condemns mankind, not just the points of the Law.

Theoretically, there is a way for those "billions and billions" to earn their justification, but it is by not committing a single sin in their entire lives! I only know of one Man who did it, and they crucified Him.

Questions of God's justice and mercy are vitally important to me because if I couldn't believe that God was just and merciful, I couldn't believe in God at all.

God is just and merciful. But just because He will not go against what He has sat forth in His word does not make Him Unjust or unmerciful.

If God up and decided, "Shucks, I guess I could let in all them down there who are tryin' to earn their way in," would you still believe His word, since you know that He said that no man could earn His way into heaven? So why should anyone think that God will allow anyone into heaven without Jesus Christ as their personal Savior? Only a person who has never committed a sin would be able to stand before God without the blood of Jesus (not that I am saying that any man could, but an infant or small child).

I noticed in the original post that the question was asked was it absolutely neccessary for anyone to be saved if a baby didn't have to be. How could anyone think that they could stand before a holy and just God without the blood of Christ, unless he was totally free from sin? I guess the very notion struck me as funny (OK, ludicrous).

Michael, I am not trying to hound you, badger you, or belittle you. I have stood where you are. I have looked into the same abyss. I have pondered the same questions. I have battled the same doubts. If God is holy, if God is just, if God is merciful, then why...? I can tell you, there is no "easy" answer.

Why did God command Israel to slaughter the inhabitants of Canaan? Why did God take David's baby? Why did God demamnd the blood of millions of animals to be sacrificed? Why did God tell us through His word that those who are guilty of the smallest sin would go to hell? Why did God tell us that there is one one way? Why did He make that one way so narrow, so difficult for man to accept? Why does God spare the life of one who does not care aboutHim, but take the one in the next bed who is praying fervently for healing?

You and God will have to come to your own place of understanding. I will pray for you (I have already been praying for you!), and I ask that you do the same for me.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Paul,

I couldn't agree with you more. I have a place in my heart for anyone who is taken in by the LDS, or any other cult for that matter. I work with a couple, and I try to be the witness God wants me to be. Keep up the good work, and I will be praying for you.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Trotter,

You said, "True, those who do the Law, and keep it, could be justified. But the problem is, no man can keep the Law! There are denominations that teach their people to keep the Law, in addition to being saved. But the Bible tells us that if you keep the whole Law and stumble on one point that you are guilty of it all.

Man cannot keep the Law because of sin. And it is sin the condemns mankind, not just the points of the Law.

Theoretically, there is a way for those "billions and billions" to earn their justification, but it is by not committing a single sin in their entire lives! I only know of one Man who did it, and they crucified Him."

What you are saying is true for those who know and have the law and for those who have heard of Christ, but the verses we were discussing are talking about Gentiles who do not have the law--and these verses say they will be judged differently.

You said, "Michael, I am not trying to hound you, badger you, or belittle you..."

I know you're not. I think we kind of got off on the wrong foot, so to speak, through misunderstanding, or whatever, but I see more and more of your true heart and spirit, and I am glad to call you my brother (I assume you're a male)in Christ and my friend.

You said, " I will pray for you (I have already been praying for you!), and I ask that you do the same for me."

Thanks! Will do!

 

Michael,

Definately a dude. My wife wouldn't let me hang around otherwise!

All I know is that one must be without sin to approach God. As Christians, we have the sinlessness and the righteousness of Christ that was imputed to us at the moment of salvation. As for everyone else...whether they know the Law or not, they cannot approach God if they are guilty of even one sin. Period.

I admit, it is a simple view of things, but it is what I discern from the Bible.

In Christ,
Trotter