Salvation Question....

I believe baptism communicates that grace of assurance to the new believer.

Consider Lydia (Acts 16), the Jailor, and the Ethiopian Eunuch went on his was rejoicing, following his baptism (Acts 8).

The NT knew nothing about converts class before baptism.

That is utterly manmade and unfortunate.

 

Not to derail the thread, but are you saying that you don't believe that genuine Christians could never have any doubts or questions about their salvation?

 

Yes, and that is why we have the precious promises of Scripture to come back to whenever that happens.

 

Ok, I guess then I don't understand your answer to my original question.

 

Sorry about that.

Yes, I believe genuine believers may entertain doubts about their salvation. That is common.

 

Haha, no I understood that one, my question now is what you meant in your answer to me in post 21. Sorry about the confusion.

 

Well, I attempted to answer the issue of why some feel more comfortable after being baptized, though they believe that it is by faith alone in Christ alone because of God's grace alone.

 

Ok, I got it now, I thought you were saying that they would have assurance and hence not feel that way. (more comfortable)

 

Baptism was viewed as part of the conversion experience. It was unheard of to speak of a believer who wasn't baptized.

A good book to read is the one edited by Tom Schreiner of Southern Baptist Theological Seminar, Believer's Baptism.

 

On should always feel better when one has acted in obedience to the Lord. Isn't baptism a step of obedience? It should be taken seriously. It just isn't soul-saving.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Nor is it about you understanding the finer points of theology and doctrine.

Salvation is about God intervening in your life, through the power of Holy Spirit in regeneration and bringing a person to faith in Jesus Christ.

Paul spoke to the Galatian Christians concerning a false gospel (keeping the Old Testament Law) that corrupted the truth of who Jesus Christ is, and the Christian liberty they had in Christ.

Gal. 3: 2 "This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?' (3) Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?"

Notice he doesn't call into question their salvation. He says they are attempting to perfect by works what they had already recieved by faith. Their salvation is not in question. Their liberty in Christ is.

Paul is trying to correct their theology after their salvation, demonstrating a person can be saved without understanding the relationship between works and salvation.

I guess the extent of "properly or biblically" is the question.

peace to youraying:

 

And see, on this I agree (both the your comment and the book )

Baptism was part of the salvation 'experience' but they did not equate baptism as being that which saves.

 

No one has said anything about this. The gospel does not entail the finer points of theology.

Ummm.. Paul said they began in the truth and started to believe the lie that was 'brought in'. Of course he doesn't question their salvation because he specifically states they began in the truth.
Notice your own scripture quote:

He was vehemently opposed to such a gospel that added anything to "by grace through faith". To place anything else in there was to, as Paul says, to place them under ther law, and thus under bondage and death.

No, that is not correct.
He said they began properly but their understanding was corrupted 'afterwards', thus began in the Spirit, but now trying to be made righteous through works.

Baptism is part of the salvation 'experience but should never and can never Baptism was part of the salvation 'experience' but they should not and can not equate baptism as being that which saves or the vehicle of salvation (along side faith and Christ's work)

 

Are you saying that a person can hear the gospel of Jesus Christ (how ever you define the essential elements), and then, at the end, they are told they must be baptized to complete their salvation; that salvation becomes impossible?

At what point is the gospel so corrupted that Holy Spirit cannot bring a person under conviction of their sin and bring them to faith in Jesus Christ?

peace to youraying:

 

No, that is not even close to what I said. Not even close.
I said they were saved and were going off into error.
This specific error would lead people to a false understanding of the truth which means it is not the truth and thus can not save. THAT was Pauls point and distinction between the law and faith. When we change the truth it is no longer truth. When we add to the gospel, we have removed the gospel and created something contrary to it.

The gospel is simple and not complicated. The gospel deals with salvation by grace through faith. God does not save a person through error but through the truth. People can be saved who are under error (by using others or even the scripture itself to tell them the truth) but not through or using the teaching of error.

At the point it is no longer the biblical gospel. Anything added to it or taken away from it always, in every instance, creates something other than the truth of the gospel of grace.

 

But then:

So, was the answer to the question...Yes or No? You appear to be saying both.

peace to youraying:

 

Neither, with specific regard to your question. What you asked 'if I was saying' was not close to what I 'was' saying.

The gospel does not include baptism "to complete salvation". You wont find that anywhere in scripture. We know that you canl not find a saved person who was not baptised. What you will find regarding baptism is the mark of obedience of one who IS saved thus fulfilling all aspects of the salvation experience, meaning not only and internal commitment but an external declaration and identification. Baptism is a sign of one salvation, NOT an aspect OF salavation.

Salvation is by grace through faith, NOT by grace through faith but/and is completed by baptism.

You place baptism as something that completes salvation then you are already in error and leading a person through a false gospel because the emphasis is on your works (baptism) in order to be saved. Faith is not and can never be biblically seen or viewed as work according to Rom 4:4-6. However if you must 'do' something in order to 'complete' salvation that is bringing them under the law and not under grace where in salvation is found and given.

 

I understand what you are saying, and I don't necessarily disagree with it. However, I don't think there is as much of a problem with a person coming to Christ and trusting baptism at the same time. Let me explain.

I don't think anyone would pray, "Lord Jesus, I come to you asking you to forgive my sins and save me!" "Oh, and by the way, just in case your blood is not sufficient, I will get baptized as soon as possible to seal the deal."

I know that when I came to Christ when I was seventeen years old, I asked Jesus to forgive my sins and to save my soul. I didn't have any idea what any church taught, I just threw myself on God's mercy. Now, if after this event the preacher had said that I must be baptized or I would be lost, I would not have known that he was wrong. I probably would have gone along with him at the time. This would not mean I didn't trust Christ. It would just mean that I was taught wrong after my conversion. The church I was saved at was a baptist church, so none of this actually applies to me.

 

dragonfly in your case you would have already been saved before this pastor ever got to you. It's very likely he could have got you to doubt your salvation afterwards. However if he had convinced you that water baptism was nec. before, you wouldnt have gotten saved. Salvation is by grace through faith plus nothing. We dont place our trust in what we have done but rather what Christ has done for us.

 

OK, let me try it another way.

Do you believe that a person can hear the gospel of Jesus Christ (how ever you define the essential elements), and then, at the end, they are told they must be baptized to complete their salvation; (and let's also say the person believes at that point what they have been told) that since the gospel was added to, salvation becomes impossible?

In other words, do you believe Holy Spirit will not draw someone to faith in Jesus Christ if they believe baptism in necessary to complete the salvation?

peace to youraying: