Featured Samuel Rutherford and the sinner's warrant to call on Christ

I didn't say a word about "being given" to Christ. I said God has the power to "give" eternal life to whomsoever he chooses, and he has chosen to give eternal life to those that believe. Those that refuse to believe will be damned.

Yes, Jesus did say that all the Father gives him shall come to him. Yes, then it would be true that only those persons given by the Father will come to Jesus.

OK, but what does that mean? The explanation is given in vs. 45;

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Verse 45 explains that 100% of men who come to Jesus were taught by God the Father. But it also says that those who have HEARD and LEARNED come to Jesus.

The Father does the teaching, but it is the man's role to HEAR and LEARN.

Again, Jesus told his disciples to take heed how they hear, to those that hear, more shall be given, but to those who do not hear, what was given them shall be taken away.

Mar 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

And what does teaching give a man? KNOWLEDGE.

It is knowledge of Jesus that enables faith in Jesus, this is why Paul asked how it is possible to believe in Jesus unless we have heard of him?

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Does Paul ask how any man can believe unless God the Father supernaturally instills faith in him? NO, Paul simply implies that all that is necessary for a man to have the ability to believe is that a preacher must come and preach the gospel to him.

So, the only inability man has is IGNORANCE. Man is able to believe, but no man can believe what he does not know and has never heard.

There is not one word of scripture to support this false doctrine of Total Inability.

 

Oh pleeeeeease be honest for a change! Everyone reading this thread knows you were giving a response to my post and they know what I said and the point I made and I NEVER referred to "power" but to the limitation that the Father placed on whom He gave the Son. I said that limitation by the Father demonstrates the Father was not willing to give ALL FLESH to the Son for eternal life because coming to the Son for eternal life is consequential to first being given to the Son by the Father for that very purpose (Jn. 17:2; Jn. 6:37-39).

You then REVERSED the Biblical order and said that giving was consequential to coming in order to escape the problem that the Father LIMITED who he gave to the Son for eternal life - "as many as" were given to him to them alone He gave eternal life. If the Father had given ALL FLESH than the son would had given eternal life to "AS MANY AS" were given but he did not give "ALL FLESH". The fact that "ALL" the father gives does in fact come to Christ for eternal life so that NONE ARE LOST and thus "ALL" have eternal life proves that giving eternal life is consequential to the LIMITATION of whom is given NOT THE REVERSE as you attempt to twist the scriptures.

GIVING precedes and is the condition for coming to Christ for eternal life - Jn. 6:37-39 and "shall come" proves this grammatically.

the NUMBER given by the Father precedes and is the condition for Christ giving eternal life and the words "as many as" proves that.

Hence, it is the Father that placed the limitation on whom the Son SHALL give eternal life to! The only ones that come to Christ for eternal life are those given by the Father and "ALL" the Father gives to come to the son SHALL COME and thus shall be given eternal life. (1) The Father gives a precise number "all"; (2) The "all" do in fact come to Christ fore eternal life; (3) Christ does in fact give eternal but only to "as many as" were given him by the Father. You have to twist, reverse, deny this order and that is precisely what you do.

 

You are confusing the quotation of plural "prophets" (Isa. 45a) with the explanation of Christ (Isa. 45b)

Furthermore, you are ignoring the contextual definition of "all" by use of the prophets as it does not refer to "all flesh" but to "all" partakers of the New covenant according to these prophets (Jer. 31:33-34; Isa. 54:13; Ezek. 36:26-27; Heb. 8, 10). However, you could care less about context, right?

 

I am and have been honest. You may have been speaking about being given, I was simply saying that I agree God can give life to whomsoever he chooses, and the scriptures show and say he has chosen to give eternal life to those who believe, and damn those who do not believe.

I do not agree that God imposes faith on certain men, and you have not proved this view whatsoever.

What God gives men is knowledge. That is why Jesus said they shall all be TAUGHT of God. Teaching gives KNOWLEDGE. And it is knowledge that enables a man to believe. That is why Paul asked HOW can a man BELIEVE in whom he has not HEARD?

Paul doesn't say one word about the necessity to be supernaturally regenerated to believe, and this would have been the perfect place to say so. In fact, Paul never says it anywhere in scripture, not once. You cannot possibly show it and you know it.

No, Paul simply implies that all that is necessary for a man to believe is that a preacher must come and preach the gospel to him. So, what men lack is KNOWLEDGE, not ability.

The thing "given" to men by the Father is knowledge. They must be TAUGHT by the Father.

That said, the man has to hear and learn. You could have the best teacher in the state, but if you do not pay attention to that teacher you will not learn and you will fail.

Now, if you weren't such a fanatical Calvinist trying to make scripture fit your flawed theology, you would readily admit a student must pay attention and hear to learn from a teacher. A ten year old kid knows this. But you will be stubborn and obstinate to the end.

You just keep telling yourself you are right, but time will tell.

 

You are repeating the same lie! You are responding to the texts I set forth that prove giving eternal life is RESTRICTED by "as many as" the Father has given for that purpose not vice versa as you are once again repeating.

If your interpretation were correct John 17:2 would say, "The Father has given me ALL FLESH to give eternal life to as many as come to me for it." IT DOES NOT SAY THAT but that is how you are interpreting it! So you are not being honest with the scriptures I set forth.

Coming to Christ for eternal life is RESTRICTED to only those given to the Son by the Father for that purpose and the Father did not give the Son "ALL FLESH" for that purpose.

 

Again, I was not speaking of verse 37 where it says "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me". I wasn't speaking of that verse at all. Just because you said something in your post does not require me to respond to it, and I was not responding to that portion of your post. I wasn't lying, and I am not lying now.

But it just shows you know you are losing the debate, you resort to slander.

Now, if you want to me to give my view, I believe that God the Father knows from the beginning who will believe on Jesus, and gives these persons to Jesus. This is who Jesus calls "my sheep" and their distinguishing characteristic is that they HEAR and FOLLOW Jesus. They believe.

But before they believed Jesus, they believed the Father through the scriptures.

Jhn 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

See, you have to believe the Father, believe the words of scripture before you will believe on Jesus.

 

He calls me a liar because he is losing the debate. It's all he's got.

And what part of his view do you agree with?

 

And then what about those who dont or cant hear, or see, or comprehend scriptures?

 

You mean someone like Helen Keller, or a baby? Or a person who never hears the gospel?

I believe the scriptures are clear concerning babies and little children, they do not know between good and evil and therefore are not accountable.

As for others, scripture says those without the law shall perish without the law, and that man has the law written on his heart.

The scriptures also show a man is held accountable for what he knows.

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Jesus said the servant who knew his lord's will, but did not prepare himself shall be beaten with many stripes, but the servant who did not know his will, but did things "worthy of stripes", shall be beaten with few stripes.

I am not sure what this means, but it implies that folks who do not know the gospel will receive a lesser punishment.

I personally believe that if any man desires to know the truth, God will reveal himself to that person.

Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

 

Bravado? You mean his sickening arrogance? Yeah, it is absolutely repulsive, but he doesn't get it.

He's a legend in his own mind.

 

The man who wants salvation already HAS it. The man who hungers and thirsts (desires it) after righteousness is a blessed character (Matt. 5: 2-6). The alien sinner doesn't want salvation, he doesn't fear God, and he doesn't love God; therefore we conclude that the man who wants salvation, fears God and loves God is a subject of grace (Rom. 3: 11, 18; I John 4: 10) .

 

You assume a Calvinist view when that is the question.

The Philipian jailer desired life, but the was not saved, else Paul would not have told him to believe to be saved.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

"Shalt be" is future tense, the Philipian jailer was not saved when Paul told him to believe to be saved. This refutes your view and shows an unregenerate man can desire to be saved.

Total Inability is false doctrine. I do not simply say this, I show you actual scripture that demonstrates this. You can read, did the Philipian jailer desire to be saved? Was he saved when he asked Paul how to be saved?

 

Yes....I believe he was saved...he was just looking for Paul's instruction

 

I’m sorry to have tell you, brother Convicted1, that due to getting caught up in Calvinistic Systematic Theology you have developed a wrong understanding on the Nature and Ways of God. God is Love, Goodness, Mercy and Truth as well as God is a God of “Judgment” in TRUTH! God is a Just God and in His judgment He will judge man according to the nature that all men were made in (divinely designed in creation) and that nature includes sense, reason and intellect which allows not only for all to be sinners but for all to be saved as our Loving God promised from before the foundation of the world for all His creatures. God’s “true judgment” of all His creatures allows for mercy which was His purpose in creation because He is a God of Love. You have purposed to limit God’s ability to be One of “true judgment AND true mercy” by fitting His Nature into a God who cannot create creatures who could have the kind of nature that could be judged in TRUTH because of imposing a form of Predestinarianism that comes from the ideas of man, not God or His loving plans. Your “new” “understanding” of the nature and abilities of man denies the truth of God’s Nature and His judgment of mankind which is a subject I have addressed more fully here. I welcome you to address these issues there without all the nonsense that goes on here.

Your view is heading into an “extreme” form of Calvinism (Hyper-Calvinism) that carries with it serious flawed theological implications. Your view has now come to having a loving God deterministically creating men with no genuine hope (as you have admitted above) but only to be predestined to be condemned to everlasting punishment. If that is the Good News you wish to preach into the world, like you are doing here with the suggestion that some/most men have no ability of their own to respond to the free loving offer of grace because of being predestined not to be able to do so then I strongly suggest you be consistent with your “truth” and include it in your gospel message every time lest you be a liar. BUT, to be clear I will tell you that if that is your view of the Nature and promises of God from creation then your god is my Devil.

I implore you to think out the reasoning you put forth in your theology more closely and consider the message you carrying into the world to “in truth” be one of despair for most of God’s creatures. Will you really reason with me that your interpretation of the names written in the Book of Life leads to a true conclusion according to your Calvinist’ systematic theological view and do you believe this proof-text proves such to me? Is that really how you will begin to reason with me that such a theological system is true? In complete disregard for the fore-mentioned natures of God and man while you attempt to argue ideas of these forms of limiting predestination to predetermination according to that interpretational basis? I’m not sure whether to find that personally insulting that you would think I would buy into such reasoning or if I should consider avoidance of the real issues behind this on your part…

Will you really begin to argue and support these detrimental theological Hyper-Calvinist ideas with such poor circular reasoning as to go down the road of using this scripture as evidence that you are telling me a truth about God’s Nature to be One who was “pleased” to create men with no real hope???

Do have any idea how easily this circular reasoning attempt to begin “proving” your theological systematic view of Divine Deterministic Sovereignty to conclude this form of creational predestination is true as per man’s ideas is logically (truthfully) refuted!? If not, will you please set aside your enthusiasm to teach me your systematic view of predestination is correct long enough to consider that God’s form of predestination includes the divine ability to blot of these names from the Book of Life therefore rendering your manmade rules of predestination to be an unchanging declaration of God from before creation to be an invalid and meaningless argument!?

Brother Convicted1, you need to think from outside this box! I’m sorry if the foregoing or this if following advice is insulting, but if so I ask you to humble yourself because you are demonstrating some pretty foolish reasoning. It is foolishness to throw out that proof-text like you did as if that would be convincing to me that to believe that some/most men have no hope of salvation – a very despairing conviction for me to hear from you BTW. You have done nothing with that verse other than put on a rhetorical meaningless show that you can proof-text your system. You know me better than that. Do you really believe that my arguments for the free will/volition of man doesn’t go much deeper than to merely offer me such a foolish argument as if it supports this view you’ve adopted that some/most men have no genuine hope???

The only thing you have accomplished, which I would be concerned about if I were you, is to possibly spread a gospel message of most probable “bad news” to an onlooker who may be reading it here AS IF it were “truth”. In love, I ask you to think out the Nature of God and His divine design of man more carefully and to forgo these types of foolish argument.

 

Well, Paul did not believe he was saved, Paul told him to believe on the Lord Jesus and thou "shalt be" (future tense) saved.

If it comes to you or Paul, I will believe Paul.

 

:thumbs::applause::thumbs:

 

Benjamin

Convicted 1 has posted clearly and correctly.:thumbsup: the fact that both you and Winman object and distort his post is testimony to the correctness of it.:applause:

God always judges righteous judgement.This is nothing new and has nothing to do with Convicted 1 's post.

This is a denial of revealed biblical truth...all sinned in Adam and are guilty,they are not created apart from Adam.

.
Of course nothing in scripture supports this at all...but it is an interesting carnal philosophy.

You seem quite fond of suggesting to God what true judgement might be at
least in your world. The saints in heaven understand that God already has a perfect justice...true and righteous judgement....He does not have to consult with you first.

19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

No...mercy is God's purpose in the redemption of
the elect...in the New Creation

No...because he is God...all of His attributes are Holy attributes....Holy love, Holy wrath,etc.

His post just reflected revealed scripture without added carnal speculation.

You deny romans 3 and romans 5 again...but who is counting?

,

The Spirit had the man Paul write it down for us...so we can study it.:love2:

Election of individuals is God's loving plan!
3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

No...not at all.It has enhanced his understanding of scripture.

No...again you do not understand either calvinism or hyper-calvinism.

this is your third denial of romans 3,5.....the "hat trick"![

you may contemplate that for awhile.

Do not confuse his post with your confused and fragmented philosophy.

Of course you have never done it.:laugh:

 

According to you it has never been done, but we both know that is not true. Read and learn from history that I am not alone in my opinion of about the detrimental effects of your doctrines my friend:

Wesley in regards to the Calvinist Doctrines of Predestination:

Pay especially close attention to these words Icon as you act as if you've never heard them before. It appears Wesley must have known someone much like you: