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Featured Sanctification not inclusive of Justification

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, May 19, 2012.

  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    John says that such were some of you, but NOW are washed by the blood of Christ WHEN you received Him by faith!

    paul states that we we taken/transalted out from midst of satans kingdom and placed into that of his Sin WHEN we received him by faith!

    Do you have extra revelation from God they missed?
     
  2. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    the bib

    Yes, they literally and realistically existed in Christ before being created in Adam, as well as they literally and realistically existed in Adam when He was Created as their Natural Head.

    Now the Elect did not exist in Christ before the world began as flesh and blood, but as seed substance, they were given to Him as His Seed.

    They were in Him in this seed substance, Just as God's word says that Levi was in Abraham's Loins in seed substance, before Levi was even thought about naturally speaking ! Heb 7:9-10

    9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

    10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

    Thats why Christ is called the Everlasting Father,Isa 9:6 not because He is the same Father as in the Trinity, but because He from everlasting was given a seed, chosen in Him.

    Hence He could say Isa 53:10


    10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

    And yes, this spiritual seed substance, yet undeveloped, with the Lives of all the Election of Grace, was in Him.

    John mentions it here Jn 1:4

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    2 The same was in the beginning with God.

    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

    That Life is the Life of all His Elect Seed in Him, their spiritual life, just like Adam had their physical undeveloped life in him !

    Of course, I already know you cannot receive such truth in your natural mind, but you will still be held accountable for it !
     
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    jesus is the Seed of Abraham, as per the Apsotle paul...

    When did the saved get saved by God?

    HAD to be after their physical birth, or were they born saved already?
     
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    So, since you admit they did not have any MATERIAL existence prior to creation, then you are teaching they existed as SPIRITUAL substance since the preincarnated Christ was not a MATERIAL Being but a SPIRITUAL being. Hence, you are teaching they were in ETERNAL SPIRITUAL UNION with God and thus ONE IN SPIRITUAL SUBSTANCE with God. Hence, you are teaching Mormonism.

    Sorry, Hebrews 7:9-10 does not fit your theory. Hebrews 7:9-10 is talking about PHYSICAL MATERIAL REPRODUCTIVE UNION according to SEXUAL reproductive union. The Preincarnate Jesus had no MATERIAL or SEXUAL reproductive "seed" as He was SPIRITUAL in subtance not MATERIAL in substance as was Abraham and Levi.

    No, that is not why He is called "Father" in Isaian 9:6. The Literal Hebrews is "Father of eternity" and means He is the source from which all things originate and outside of time.

    He is speaking of the New birth of those who were CHILDREN OF WRATH BY NATURE EVEN AS OTHERS but were elected to salvation. The New birth is the implantation of the Living "seed" or the Word of God in bringing forth spiritual life (1 Pet. 1:23,25) through the creative command of God (2 Cor. 4:6). Hence, they are his "seed" by new birth or regeneration by the Spirit of God.

    You are deceived and you are a false teacher who doesn't even understand the abc's of Biblical salvation.
     
  5. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    I have explained it already, they existed as Christ's Seed in Him, in the fashion as the elect existed in Adam in seed fashion, and as Levi existed in Abraham in seed fashion, God said of Levi that he payed tithes in Abraham, while he was yet in His Loins ! Heb 7:9-10

    9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

    10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

    Thats how the Elect were in the Mediator Christ Jesus,the Man, before the world began ! 1 Tim 2:5


    For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
     
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    And I have already shown that is an impossible analogy as Abraham was a PHYSICAL MATERIAL SEXUAL reproductive Human being and had PHYSICAL "seed" within him but God is a SPIRITUAL non-material Being who does not REPRODUCE after His own kind and so your analogy is absurd!

    I have already proven that the "seed" refers to those within the Human specie in who would experience NEW BIRTH and thus become the true "seed" in the sense of spiritual offspring by NEW BIRTH.
     
  7. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Christ does reproduce His Seed by Death Jn 12:24

    24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

    Fruit here is the greek word karpos and it means:


    fruit

    a) the fruit of the trees, vines, of the fields

    b) the fruit of one's loins, i.e. his progeny, his posterity

    Thats why The Prophet Isa wrote under inspiration Isa 53:10

    10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed or fruit, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

    The bible uses the word fruit to describe progeny as here Ps 127:3

    Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.

    See, you cannot think past the physical when these terms are used. You are like nicodemus as when Jesus told him that a man must be born again, he thought it it meant something physical.

    Christ as Spritiual Man in Heaven before the world began was given a seed. They were chosen in Him before the foundation. They were in Him as Levi was in Abraham

    Heb 7:9-10

    9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

    10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

    The Elect were in the Spiritual loins of their Father Christ. This is redemptive fatherhood, Christ was not the Father.

    Again, that is why Christ is called the Everlasting Father ! The Father has been given a seed, a progeny.

    Again, these are Spiritual Truthes, and it is as Paul stated, if you are not spiritual, you cannot receive these things, they are foolishness to you 1 Cor 2:14

    14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
     
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You expect anyone to believe that the only elect female elect "seed" for 1600 years was Eve? This geneology is simply the list of firstborn through which Jesus would come as Luke demonstrates. None of their brothers or sisters are given, none of their wives are given. So simple and yet you are so blind.

    No human being existed literally or seminally prior to creation. That is pure imagination and perversion of scriptures on your part. The spiritual "seed" of Abraham and the "seed" of Christ are those CREATED through the "seed" of His Word in time and space and obtain SPIRITUAL BIRTH and thus are the SPIRITUAL children of God or "seed" of Christ.

    You are so spiritually blind to the simplest truths. We had no existence prior to creation except for in the purpose of God. We had no "seed" existence except in Adam as HUMAN seed reproduced after its own kind. The "seed" of Christ are "SPIRITUAL" because they are CREATED by spiritual REGENERATION or the implantation of the "seed" of God's Word.

    You simply can't grasp the simplicity of that truth in John 12 but have to complicate it. Through his death sin was defeated and thus death defeated as death is penalty of sin. We live because He died and by his death death was defeated. In that death came a resurrection of life and because He lived we live, once regenerated by the Spirit of God.
     
    #108 The Biblicist, May 26, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: May 26, 2012
  9. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    I have no ideal what you are talking about, this is a rabbit trail !
     
  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    A rabbit traily YOU STARTED by suggesting the rediculous notion that Genesis 5 gives the geneology of the "seed" of the woman or elect while Cain's geneology gives the lineage or "seed" of the serpent or the non-elect!

    How rediculous! That requires no women but one was an elect for 1600 years. None of those listed had more than ONE child who is named as the firstborn and none of their wives, daughters or sisters ever were saved according to your interpretation of that lineage!
     
    #110 The Biblicist, May 26, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: May 26, 2012
  11. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    All I did was show that Cain was not out of Adam. I did that by a few ways, the Genealogy, T e fact that Eve plainly states who her and Adam's seed was, it was first obviously Abel, who we know scripture states was shown to be righteous Heb 11:4

    4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

    He was replaced by Seth ! And it was through Seth that Men began to call upon the Name of the Lord Gen 4:26

    26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.

    Then in the NT John states where Cain did come from ! It was not from Adam, but out of the wicked One 1 Jn 3:12

    12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one,

    We know that the serpent had a seed of his own because God said so Gen 3:14-15

    14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

    15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


    Cain was of the serpents seed. The serpents seed receives physical life through Adam"s corrupt nature, though they did not sin in Adam !

    Adam is the Natural Head of both the Elect and Non Elect, but he is the federal Head of only the Elect, who were made at first in the image of God !

    The devil, and his seed , we have no evidence that God created them in His own Image and Likeness ! Those who were created originally in Adam, but sinned, shall be conformed to the image of Christ , who is the Image of God 2 Cor 4:4

    Now as Far as women are concerned, I believe there were elect woman all throughout world History beginning with Eve, however the bible normally does not refer to them for genealogy and seed purposes ! So your comments to me are irrelevant and a rabbit trail !
     
  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    A. SBM Argues that Cain cannot be found in this geneology because he was not created "in Adam" and thus his source of sin and death cannot be traced to Adam's sin and death but rather to Satan Himself and is a whole different kind of humanity that Satan created.

    B. Readers, look at this rediculous intepretation of Genesis 5 and Adam's geneology by SBM.

    1. No other woman but Eve mentioned in this geneology and so no elect sisters, wives or daughters for 1600 years.

    2. Only ONE son is mentioned birthed to all the men who are mentioned, thus none of their daughters or other sons ever a child of God.

    3. They had other children even as it is explicitly stated that Adam and Eve had other "sons and daughters" after Seth was born.

    CONCLUSION: Were all their wives, daughters and sisters and other sons born in the geneology of Cain?????????????? Think about this! It is such an absurd interpetation that it defies imagination that any rational person could even entertain it without histerical laughter.

    If you haven't got it, it would mean Seth's wife had to be born in line of Cain because she is not mentioned in Adam's line just as Cain is not mentioned in Adam's line. It would mean all the other children of Adam and these firstborn men had to be somehow fathered by both the named man and someone from the line of Cain because they are not mentioned by name! Do you get this absolute nonsense????????

    This geneology only lists the FIRSTBORN sons and lineage through whom Christ would eventually be traced through and therefore like all other geneologies that Christ would come through only first born sons are named. Only the geneologies given by Matthew and Luke contain women but no other sisters, sons or daughters.
     
  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    SBG answer this question:

    What happens when someone from Cain's lineage marrys someone from Adam's lineage - Which lineage does their children belong to? Is Adam's lineage corrupted when this happens or can the "seed" of the elect come through children born of both lineages???

    Are the children half human and half not human?

     
  14. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    So the Elect of God are actually both Justified and Sanctified before the world began !

    God The Father set them apart and Gave them to Christ as Holy Seed Jude 1:1

    Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

    For Jude to mention this in a Letter to saints, gives us to know that what he is saying they are familiar with from previous Gospel Teaching from him , the Faith delivered to the saints Jude 1:3

    3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

    Faith here is the Gospel or the Word of Faith Phil 1:27

    Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

    Rom 10:8

    But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

    Notice that this word of Faith or Gospel was delivered unto the saints, those set apart by the Spirit of God for it's reception !

    That word delivered in Jude 1:3 is the greek word paradidōmi:


    to give into the hands (of another)

    2) to give over into (one's) power or use

    a) to deliver to one something to keep, use, take care of, manage

    b) to deliver up one to custody, to be judged, condemned, punished, scourged, tormented, put to death

    c) to deliver up treacherously

    1) by betrayal to cause one to be taken

    2) to deliver one to be taught, moulded

    3) to commit, to commend

    4) to deliver verbally

    a) commands, rites

    b) to deliver by narrating, to report

    5) to permit allow

    a) when the fruit will allow that is when its ripeness permits

    b) gives itself up, presents itself

    The word is also used by Paul in preaching the Gospel here 1 Cor 15:3

    For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

    The same objects were delivered to, the Saints 1 Cor 1:2

    Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

    The Gospel as a word of Salvation is only delivered to the Church that Christ died for Eph 5:25, those who have been set apart by the sanctification of the Spirit unto belief of the Truth , for only those are called by the Gospel 2 Thess 2:13-14

    13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel[The word of Truth Eph 1:13], to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    But this sanctification by the Spirit is totally different from that of the Father in Jude 1:1. The one by the Father is before time began, and the one by the Spirit is in time, and has to do with that call of the Gospel which is followed by the sanctification of the Father in Jude 1:1 !
     
  15. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Readers, SBM cannot answer the questions. His interpetation of Genesis 5 simply cannot stand up under scrutiny.

    However, as you can see, he does not care as his only goal is to advertise his false doctrines rather than debate the REAL problems to his unbiblical assertions.
     
  16. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    The bib

    SBG answer this question:

    I answered that already here post 85

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=78985&page=9
     
  17. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Please skip to the part where you explain why God creates people simply to throw them into the lake of fire.
     
  18. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Because in the depraved system called Calvinism, it pleases and glorifies Him and His "sovereignty".
     
  19. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    SBM's view of Calvinism is skewed. My position does not demand that God created some people for no other reason but to be condemned to hell.

    My position and my interpretation of scriptures demand that election is to salvation not to damnation. My understanding of Romans 9 is that God's election was in regard to mankind already in a fallen state due to sin and that if God would have simply exercised justice all mankind would have been immediately condemned to hell "in Adam" and as soon as Adam sinned. Hence, election is an act of God's mercy with no basis to save anyone according to any forseen personal merit or demerit as all mankind equally and justly deserved wrath.
     
  20. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Thank you for explaining your position. I like it much better than SBM's, for example.
     
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