1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Sanctification precedes regeneration.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by 37818, Nov 25, 2022.

  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    12,728
    Likes Received:
    993
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No. You have not proven the contrary. Two more Scriptures are not going help you believe what you do not want to believe.

    If you cannot understand what I have explained, how are you to understand more?

    I suggest you listen to the Spirit, not me. And maybe you can with simplicity explain the difference between our understandings here.
    1 John 2:27, ". . . But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. . . ."
     
  2. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    9,912
    Likes Received:
    1,389
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So, you have no definition of the terms and no scripture that supports anything since you cannot define the terms. Ultimately, until you actually define the terms, your comments are empty and worthless.

    Do your job. Give your definition of sanctification. Give your definition of regeneration. Then show how sanctification comes before regeneration.
    I have provided my definition of both terms and you just huff like an angry bull.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    12,728
    Likes Received:
    993
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You then, am I to suppose, you deny regeneration takes place at salvation?
    Ephesians 1:13, Romans 10:13.
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    23,572
    Likes Received:
    863
    Faith:
    Baptist
    LOL, first we need to define sanctification and specify which meaning we are discussing.

    Saints, are the people who have been set apart, sanctified, for God's purpose. The OT Saints (see Hebrews 11) gained approval by faith. However, God also "makes holy," sanctifies, individuals by the washing of regeneration.

    When 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says individuals are chosen for salvation (the purpose) through sanctification by the Spirit, the meaning is the Spirit sets the individuals apart in Christ, where they are made alive (regenerated).

    So by the numbers:
    1) God sets an individual apart in Christ, which constitutes their individual election based on crediting their faith as righteous faith.
    2) Once placed into Christ, the individual undergoes the washing of regeneration which makes them holy, righteous and perfect.
    3) Thus individuals are indeed set apart in Christ before they are regenerated. Why is this? Because we are made alive, regenerated, together with Christ, thus after being placed within Christ's spiritual body. It is a lock.
     
  5. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,133
    Likes Received:
    1,995
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The 'he' is the Lord Jesus Christ, otherwise we shall have to become paedobaptists. 'And for their sakes I sanctify Myself.....' (John 17:19). Also, in the Heb 10 passage, 'the Son of God' is the nearest antecedent to 'he.'
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  6. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    9,912
    Likes Received:
    1,389
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Why would you suppose that?
    God is clear.
    God chose, elected, and adopted us before the foundation of the world.
    At the appointed time, God made us alive (regenerated) us and began the process of sanctification (making us holy and set apart) as unto the Lord. When we get to heaven we will be glorified.
    *Romans 8:29-30*
    For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.
     
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    12,728
    Likes Received:
    993
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No. The antecedent is in the verse to the word "he was sanctified" is the word "shall he be thought worthy" in Hebrews 10:29.
     
  8. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,133
    Likes Received:
    1,995
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Don't be so sily. 'Shall he be thought worthy' (a) comes before comes before 'the Son of God' and is therefore not the nearest antecedent to 'he' of 'he was sanctified.' Do you even know what an antecedent is? And (b) 'Shall he be thought worthy ' cannot trample anyone underfoot.
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    12,728
    Likes Received:
    993
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Please show me a modern translation where the pronouns are capitalized for deity that translates "He" instead of "he was sanctified."
     
  10. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,133
    Likes Received:
    1,995
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The question is whether someone who has been sanctified can then trample the Son of God uderfoot.
    Many Presbyterians say "yes." Infants, they say, are sanctified by baptism, set apart to God, but yet can fall away. This argument comes up on the Puritan Board regularly. I hope that as a Baptist you would reject such an argument out of hand.. Believers are Christ's sheep; they hear His voice and they follow Him. And Christ will never let them fall away so as to trmple Him underfoot. No, it is the unbeliever who may take a temporary interest in Christianity (c.f. Matthew 13:20-22) who by falling away may be described as trampling the Son of God underfoot.
    It is the Presbyterian bias in some translations that keep them from capitalizing 'he.' Interestingly the famous John Owen, when he wrote Death of Death in the Death of Christ as a young man and a Presbyterian, followed the Presby line, but later when, as a Congregationalist he wrote his mammoth commentary on Hebrews, he had come to see that sanctified believers cannot fall awway and changed his view.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    12,728
    Likes Received:
    993
    Faith:
    Baptist
    2 Thessalonians 2:13, ". . . to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: . . ."
    Has been understood here by me sanctification precedes the belief of the truth to salvation.
    1 Peter 1:2, ". . . through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: . . ." Again understood to precede salvation.
     
  12. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    3,995
    Likes Received:
    195
    Faith:
    Baptist

    (ABPs+) Of how muchG4214 do you thinkG1380 worseG5501 shall he be worthy ofG515 punishmentG5098 the oneG3588 [2theG3588 3sonG5207 G3588 4of GodG2316 1having trampled],G2662 andG2532 [2theG3588 3bloodG129 4of theG3588 5covenantG1242 6as commonG2839 1esteeming],G2233 inG1722 whichG3739 he was sanctified,G37 andG2532 [2theG3588 3spiritG4151 G3588 4of favorG5484 1having insulted]?G1796

    (BSB 1.2) How much more severely do you think one deserves to be punished who has trampled on the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

    (CJB) Think how much worse will be the punishment deserved by someone who has trampled underfoot the Son of God; who has treated as something common the blood of the covenant which made him holy; and who has insulted the Spirit, giver of God's grace!

    (ESV+) How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one R11who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned R12the blood of the covenant R13by which he was sanctified, and has R14outraged the Spirit of grace?

    (LEB Q) How much worse punishment do you think the person will be considered worthy of who treats with disdain the Son of God and who considers ordinary the blood of the covenant by which he was made holy and who insults the Spirit of grace?

    (NET+) How much greater punishment do you think that person deserves who has contempt forN35 the Son of God, and profanesN36 the blood of the covenant that made him holy,N37 and insults the Spirit of grace?

    (NIV 1984) How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

    (NKJV) Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

    (NLTs) Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God's mercy to us.

    (NRSV) How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

    After all these there is only one question that has to be answered. Was Christ Jesus made Holy by the blood of the covenant, His death and resurrection or was the one who trusted in Christ Jesus the one who was made Holy?

    From reading the text as we find it, it would seem that yes man can repudiate the faith that they once held.
     
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    12,728
    Likes Received:
    993
    Faith:
    Baptist
    My tenet is what was head, not held, was being repudiated.
     
  14. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    9,912
    Likes Received:
    1,389
    Faith:
    Baptist
    How do you get sanctification before salvation in these passages?
    *2 Thessalonians 2 : 9-15*
    The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruitsto be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

    *1 Peter 1:1-2*
    Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  15. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    3,995
    Likes Received:
    195
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Are you saying that man can not repudiate the faith they once believed?
     
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    12,728
    Likes Received:
    993
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This reply of yours is a case in point.
     
    #36 37818, Nov 27, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2022
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    12,728
    Likes Received:
    993
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, if the person is genuinely regenerated. Can 1 + 1 equals 2 once known be honestly be denied?

    There are those of the stony ground.
    Matthew 13:20-21, "But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended."
     
  18. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    9,912
    Likes Received:
    1,389
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I take this as you having no clue what you believe nor any way to explain it. Thus your assertion is moot.

    When you care to actually define what you believe and exactly how you get there, let us know. At present you are amazingly vague, which has been your modus operandi.
     
  19. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    3,995
    Likes Received:
    195
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I do not think you will find a clearer description of a believer anywhere in the text of the bible. [Hebrews 6:4-6] Here we see five statements relating to one of faith

    1] those who were once enlightened

    2] have tasted the heavenly gift

    3] have become partakers of the Holy Spirit

    4] have tasted the good word of God

    5] and the powers of the age to come
    Only one who is a true believe in Christ Jesus would be described in such a way.

    And here we see the result of them latter denying Christ Jesus.

    If they fall away it is impossible to renew them again to repentance. Why, because they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

    One would have to work every hard to avoid the clear implication of these texts. This is not saying that one has to do so but the possibility is there for anyone to do so. One that falls away from their faith in Christ Jesus usually do not do it suddenly it is usually just a drifting away to apathy and disinterest and then to rejection.
     
  20. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    9,912
    Likes Received:
    1,389
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That's certainly one way of looking at this, however, you would have to ignore Hebrews 6:9 to come to that thought.
    Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation.

    The book of Hebrews is a recorded sermon. The preacher is talking about the congregants of whom some are considering going back to Judaism to avoid persecution and because they are feeling disillusioned with what they had personally hoped for. The preacher is telling the listeners that if they turn away from the Christian faith, there is no hope for them. An unbeliever, attending church, could experience all the things you pointed out.
    1] those who were once enlightened
    2] have tasted the heavenly gift
    3] have become partakers of the Holy Spirit
    4] have tasted the good word of God
    5] and the powers of the age to come

    We see people in the book of Acts experiencing these things and not being saved.
    Acts 8:14-24
    Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Repent, therefore, of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.” And Simon answered, “Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”

    Sliverhair, it doesn't surprise me that you would teach that a person can lose their salvation. You are being perfectly consistent with your humanist free-will philosophy where men choose God and men reject God by their own powerful will. The God you see is the God of Deists who imagine God is silent and doing nothing other than leaving all events up to man. You really should visit a Nazarene church where your philosophy is taken to its full expression.
     
Loading...