Saved by Baptism

I think that he is doing the normal anti-catholic interpretation. 'We don't like the catholics so we don't want to sound like the catholics. For that reason we have to allegorize the Bible to defend our position so we will be as far away from catholic as possible.'

1 Pt 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this(meaning similar but not the same, Peter is related Baptism to the Flood because it is something the people are familiar with to help them understand the concept not because he is speaking about the symbolism of Baptism.), now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God
for good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,(Baptism now saves us through the resurrection of Christ see Rom 6).

Once again let me state that we(Luth. and RCC) do not believe that baptism alone saves. We believe that it does have a place in the plan of salvation as a means of grace(sacrament) and that water and the Word combined have the power through faith to forgive sin.

Tulpje, I hate to disappoint you but for various reasons I will not post my opinions on the NewYork/Benke affair.

 

I have not read all the posts on this thread but I am generaly impressed with the LCMS (They have the coolest denominational website online!) and even the WELS despite their flaws.

I think in some ways one of the biggest differances I see is that we are talking on differant channels. In order to win a Baptist over to the Lutheran position you would have to first prove infant baptism from scripture.

That will itself be a big Mountain to climb since no mention or instruction to Baptize infants is found in scripture.

I must confess though that Lutherans do not seem to be as consistent when referring to adult baptism. This statement is from the LCMS website,

Faith can also be created in a person's heart by the power of the Holy Spirit working through God's (written or spoken) Word. Baptism should then soon follow conversion (cf. Acts 8:37) for the purpose of confirming and strengthen faith in accordance with God's command and promise.

That statement itself would be consistent with what most historic Baptist confessions state. While the Roman Catholic, Orthodox and Church of Christ teach a kind of infused grace or regeneration of even adults in Baptism the Lutheran position (while more orthodox) seems to be inconsitent with their view of baptismal regeneration and seems to indicate a identity problem.

The following statement from the WELS site has a very similar sound to what Baptist confessions state,

Adults can respond to the Word, so we instruct them before we baptize them. For them faith is a seal of the faith they already have. Compare Romans 4:11.

I have no argument with that and can only say Amen. The main differance between Baptists and the LCMS, WELS seems to be on their view of regeneration of infants and not adult baptism or am I wrong on this?

If there is a twofold view of Baptism in Lutheran theology 1. That is is regenerates infants BUT 2. It is the seal of Faith for Adults then the debate would seem to be over infants in that Lutherans seem to take a Baptist view of Adult Baptism. Can some of our Lutheran friends clarify this?

[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: Kiffin ]

 

No, we don't have similar views over adult Baptism. We still believe in Baptismal regeneration of adults. Adult baptism is not viewed as a confession of faith by lutherans, it is still the same means of grace. It doesn't change just because of age. What that statement means is that we do recognize that the Holy Spirit can create faith through the hearing of the Word. Of course the Lutheran position is more orthodox, orthodox means right teaching, and we do teach the right teaching.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Godmetal:
No, we don't have similar views over adult Baptism. We still believe in Baptismal regeneration of adults. Adult baptism is not viewed as a confession of faith by lutherans, it is still the same means of grace. It doesn't change just because of age. What that statement means is that we do recognize that the Holy Spirit can create faith through the hearing of the Word. Of course the Lutheran position is more orthodox, orthodox means right teaching, and we do teach the right teaching.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course you do, as well does the other 32,000 other denominations in the world

So let's clarify this even further: Does hearing and responding to the Word as an adult have regenerative power? Or does ONLY baptism have that power? How about communion? You say that both communion and baptism are sacraments. If there are several means of grace (being saved) than obviously baptism is not necessary. Right?

UNP
Adam

 

GM thanks for the response.

The LCMS sites states, adult baptism is for "confirming and strengthen faith". Does that mean that the adults are regenerated by the water after faith? though they are already regenerated by the Holy Spirit through the Word?

The WELS site states that Baptism is to strengthen the faith they already have. Now, I am unfamiliar with someone having faith in Christ and not being regenerated though when I check my CONCORDIA STUDY BIBLE it seems to agree with you,

baptism, by means of grace, which produces faith in the believer

If the fella is already a believer why does it produce faith? Can one be a Believer and not have Faith? or is it simply stating that Baptism is helping his faith since in the 2 quotes from the WELS and LCMS state a adults have faith already. I don't think the LCMS would go up to a unconverted person and baptize them and then state they are regenerated since even Lutherans are clear faith is necessary.

Serious, though I am not trying to ridicule you or the LCMS but trying to get a grasp on what appears to me confusing since even Baptists, Presbyterians and Reformed Anglicans are not that far apart when it comes to Adult baptism but Lutherans seem to try to steer clear of Rome's infused grace in baptism on one hand but at the same time try to steer clear of Reformed and Baptist views also and there seems to be a lack of clarification and at times confusing.

 

As this thread has reached 10 pages, I will be closing it tonight at about 9:00 pm. Please post any last thoughts before then.

Thank You,

Joseph Botwinick
Moderator

 

Brian,
LOL. If we've agreed on 2 of the 1000 it is remarkable!!

Pauline

 

Mr. Curtis,
Are you saying that sanctifying grace in the soul doesn't do anything?

Sanctifying grace is a share in God's own life. It is to become a partaker in the divine nature. Think of the benefit that gives to a child as he is growing up!

Would you say that doesn't do anything?

Pauline

 

At Pentecost, when the people asked Peter, "What are we to do?" He replied, "Repent AND be Baptized... for the forgiveness of your sins."

He didn't say, "Repent and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior an you will have eternal life. Then be Baptized to show the world yor commitment to the good news of Jesus."

Later Peter says that, "Baptism... saves you."

Sure sounds like he believed that it was necessary.

[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: Glen Seeker ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Whosoever, Thank you for a great post. I will disagree with one point however. I think that the water in John 3:6 (I think 6) is birth water because of the next verse which seems to qualify the previous verse (i.e. -flesh is born of flesh and spirit born of spirit). One natural birth to enter the world(flesh) and then a spiritual re-birth to enter the Kingdom of God. I really believe that Jesus was speaking to N. as straight forward and simple as he could here and still N. didn't understand. I base that on the the dialog as a whole that Jesus and N. were having. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think this now three things that Brian and I agree on!!
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Way to often you all try to prove your theology with a verse instead just interpreting the verse for what it is. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I wish you would apply that logic to the Eucharist!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> btw, Baptism in the early church was like signing a marriage license, it showed to whom you belonged in a public, official kind of way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That is not Biblical.

There is no inconsistency in the Lutheran position on Baptism. As I have said numerous times, the Lord can work in an untold number of ways to impart His Grace; Baptism, hearing a good preacher, prayer, etc. However, Baptism is one way that He specifically told us it would happen.

 

My final thoughts? "It is easy to understand God so long as you don't try to explain him" (no not my saying, but I don't remember the author).

I think one other thing we can all agree on is that sometimes instead of trying to figure God out, instead we should just sit (kneel, stand, or whatever) and marvel in the awe of an allpower and majestic God...and that we can have a personal relationship with Him.

UNP
Adam
Ephesians 4:32

 

Glen said,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> At Pentecost, when the people asked Peter, "What are we to do?" He replied, "Repent AND be Baptized... for the forgiveness of your sins."
He didn't say, "Repent and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior an you will have eternal life. Then be Baptized to show the world yor commitment to the good news of Jesus."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually Repentance is inseperable from faith and he was calling on them to Believe upon Jesus Christ as Lord just as Paul and Silas were calling on the jailer to Repent when they said Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Peter called on those at Pentecost to repent and to signify that repentance through baptism. Forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit is given to all who Repent and express that transformation in baptism. Baptism is the visible seal of that remission.

The early Anabaptists stated this,

Menno Simons wrote:
"Those who believe receive remission of sins, not by but in baptism. They receive the good news of grace, of the remission of sins, of peace, of favour, of mercy and eternal life through Christ. Believing this they get new minds. They deny themselves. They sincerely repent of their past life. They study the Bible diligently and obey the Gospel's command. They trust in the merits of the blood of Christ. Then they receive the sign of obedience, water baptism, as proof before God and his commune that they firmly believe in the remission of sins through Jesus Christ as it was preached and taught to them from the Word of God. When all this takes place, they receive remission of their sins in baptism. They receive it according to the promise of grace. They receive it like Israel received remission of sins for offering up animal sacrifices...He who seeks remission of sins only through water baptism despises the blood of the Lord and makes water to be his idol. Therefore let everyone be careful lest he ascribe the honour and glory due to Christ to ceremonies performed and to created elements"

Baltasar Hubmaier,
"Baptism does not cleanse the soul. It must be preceded by a conscience that is pure before God"


Later we read in


1 Peter 3:21
"And corresponding to that [the water of the flood], baptism now saves you - not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

Peter does say "Baptism now saves you" but also adds "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" or "the pledge of a good conscience toward God". Peter is not saying that the water, is of any saving effect; what is meant is that, insofar as baptism is "an appeal to God for a good conscience," and demonstrates one's repentance"

Baptism is an outward sign of an inward reality - The very definition of a Sacrament. To deny it is one's public confession of the work is to deny it is a Sacrament. What my Lutheran friends probably mean is that they don't believe it is only a confession of faith. Baptism outwardly shows to the world our being united to Christ in His Resurrection and being brought from this evil world, just like Noah and his family were brought through water into a new life through the work of God.

Baptism is a way of saying to God with our whole body, I trust you to take me into Christ like Noah was taken into the ark, and to make Jesus the substitute for my sins and to bring me through these waters of death and judgment into new and everlasting life through the resurrection of Jesus my Lord.

 

Kiffin,

Great Post, exactly what I believe about Baptism. You say it much better than I ever could.

 

Too bad Kiffin's post is all just an unBiblical assumption . . . .

 

Allow me to give you the simple definition of a sacrament. Commanded by Christ and carries the promise of forgiveness

The Lutheran response to the heretical teachings of the Anabaptists.

"Concerning baptism it is taught that it is necessary, that grace is offered through it, and that one should also baptize children, who through such baptism are entrusted to God and become pleasing to him. Rejected, therefore, are the Anabaptists who teach that the baptism of children is not right." Melanchthon - AC

"Since the gospel is purely and carefully taught among us, we have received, by God's favor, this additional fruit from it: that no Anabaptists have arisen in our churches, because the people have been fortified by God's Word against the ungodly and seditious faction of these crooks. Among the many other errors of the Anabaptists we also condemn their assertion that the baptism of little children is useless. For it is most certain that the promise of salvation also pertains to little children. But it does not pertain to those who are outside the church of Christ, where there is neither Word nor sacrament, because Christ regenerates throught Word and sacrament. Therefore it is necessary to baptize little children in order that the promis of salvation might be applied to them according to Christ's mandate (Mt 28:19)"Baptise all nations" Just as salvation is offered to all in that passage, so baptism is also offered to all--men, women, children, and infants. Therefore it clearly follows that infants are to be baptized because salvation is offered with baptism.
Second, it is evident that God approves the baptism of little children. The Anabaptists who condemn the baptism of little children teach wickedly. That God approves the baptism of little children is shown by the fact that God gives the Holy Spirit to those so baptized. For if this baptism had been ineffectual the Holy Spirit would have been given to no one, none would have been saved, and ultimately there would be no church. Even taken by itself, this point can sufficiently strengthen good and godly minds against the godless and fanatical opinions of the Anabaptists" Melanchthon - AAC

[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: Godmetal ]

 

tulpje,
The moderator locks down a thread when it gets too long.

Sir Ed,
If you and Brian agree on three things, you are ahead of me. Congrats.

Adam,
I hope we're all spending that quality time with our Lord and our God daily.

Kiffin,
I don't see anyone on here saying they seek remission of sin only through water baptism.

But, God does work through material means. He did that in the OT and He still does it today. If the Catholic Church is right, that God does bestow a share of His own life in the soul at baptism -- then God's Presence in the soul would cleanse the soul of sin. This is an understandable explanation of how God works in the soul to give it a share in His own life and to raise the person a new creature in Christ Jesus. And, it fits with what scripture teaches in Ro 6.

Ro 6 is clear that something magnificent happens at baptism that causes the person to be raised a new creature. Did you experience that turning around, leaving behind the old sinful self and becoming a new creature? The bible isn't giving us empty words here. This is a living and very real experience. And the bible says it happens at baptism.

Pauline