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Saved by faith and the sinner's prayer

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by webdog, Oct 1, 2005.

  1. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    You and I must live in different dispensations from each other!

    Either your post is a jumbled mess of mumbo jumbo and freakish theology from the Twilight Zone, or I don’t have a clue to the teachings in the New Testament regarding salvation.

    [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Same dispensation. We can't move to another, yet. To a covenant theologist it would naturally sound like mumbo jumbo. Actually we dispensationalist call it the gospel of Christ Jesus from heaven, the gospel to the Gentile, and to Kings, and to Jews. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  2. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    ituttut wrote,

    In my personal opinion, Covenant Theology is dribble and dispensationalism is nonsense—but what you have posted appears to be from a “Twilight Zone” or “Lost in Space” episode.

    There is only one God, one gospel, one plan of salvation, and one body of Christ.

    There are only two covenants, the covenant of law and the covenant of grace. Adam was born under the covenant of grace, but he chose the rather the covenant of law and he fell from grace. Christ, unlike Adam, restored those who believe in Him to the covenant of grace. But believing in Christ is to have faith in him, and faith without works is dead. It was dead under the old covenant, and it is dead under the new covenant. But these works are not works of the law, but works of righteousness by grace through faith.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    In my personal opinion, Covenant Theology is dribble and dispensationalism is nonsense—but what you have posted appears to be from a “Twilight Zone” or “Lost in Space” episode.

    We are in the “twilight” of this earth, and it is a “lost” world that will go up in flames.

    There is only one God, one gospel, one plan of salvation, and one body of Christ.

    I do believe you have been reading my posts.

    There are only two covenants, the covenant of law and the covenant of grace.

    But you just said dispensation’s are nonsense, but here you cuddle up to this nonsensical knowledge?

    Adam was born under the covenant of grace, but he chose the rather the covenant of law and he fell from grace. Christ, unlike Adam, restored those who believe in Him to the covenant of grace. But believing in Christ is to have faith in him, and faith without works is dead. It was dead under the old covenant, and it is dead under the new covenant. But these works are not works of the law, but works of righteousness by grace through faith.

    </font>[/QUOTE]Adam was created. Until Christ Jesus spoke to Paul, what man knew the Gentile, and today they of the physical seed of Abraham could come through the “faith of Jesus Christ” to God the Father? Not those under the Law. Were not all before Christianity told to pray “Our Father……………..They kingdom come…………give us this day………………deliver us from evil ………….? ends with no inheritance for Jesus Christ. I can't believe that prayer is for me, as it leaves me no place to go, other than to serve the Jew for all of eternity, without entrance into the Temple.

    When the prayer ends there, what do we see. Did God allow Moses in that dispensation to approach Him boldly? “Take off your shoes – you dare approach me. You are on Holy Ground”. Jesus while on this earth as man could not, and did not say His people or anyone else could come “boldly to the throne of Grace”. It is only after Damascus Road, that we can approach the “throne of Grace”. But Grace and truth did come by Jesus Christ to His people. It is only after Christ Jesus spoke to and appointed Saul/Paul His only heavenly Apostle, that all come to the Father through the Faith of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Hebrews 4:16, ”Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.” Now, and only now in this dispensation that Christians may “boldly” approach the “throne of grace”, to obtain mercy. The only way this is possible is “through the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ”.

    You can pray the “Lord’s Prayer” all day long”, and as long as you do you will be as far away from the “throne of grace” as you were the day before. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  4. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    Johnv wrote,

    Yes, that is what I meant to say.

    This was not a dispensation; it was a “Mystery.”

    I am familiar with the argument that this prayer was given to the disciples of Jesus to pray while they were still not born again, and that it is not an appropriate prayer for Christians to pray. I am also familiar with the argument that this prayer was given to the Church to pray. Either way, we still have only two covenants—the covenant of law and the covenant of grace.

    What does the end of this prayer have to do with Moses having to take off his sandals? The throne of grace was made available to all believers when the veil of the temple was torn during the crucifixion of Jesus. We still have only two covenants—the covenant of law and the covenant of grace.

    No, whenever a Christian prays, he is before the throne of grace. There are only two covenants—the covenant of law and the covenant of grace.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Yes, that is what I meant to say.

    This was not a dispensation; it was a “Mystery.”

    Yes, we today are living in that “mystery” dispensation of God.

    Only God can dispense His Grace as He sees fit, whenever, however, and wherever. Whatever He instructs as we live is what we are to believe. Abel by faith offered a blood sacrifice. By that faith Abel is saved. I cannot be saved in that manner, for that is not what Christ Jesus from heaven tells us today. The Body of Christ did not exist in the beginning, and it did not exist in the time of Moses, or any other dispensation than today. Why did it not exist (other than in the mind of God) in the time of King David, or Daniel? God hid it in all other dispensations.

    I am familiar with the argument that this prayer was given to the disciples of Jesus to pray while they were still not born again, and that it is not an appropriate prayer for Christians to pray. I am also familiar with the argument that this prayer was given to the Church to pray. Either way, we still have only two covenants—the covenant of law and the covenant of grace.

    I see you continue along this path of “two covenants”, so let’s go with that, although there are more than two covenants. Please step back a little, and see what you say you believe. Aren’t you seeing two gospels? A gospel for those that came under the law, and a gospel freed from the law? This points to a break, a departure from a gospel of grace to another gospel of grace. You are a “dispensationalist”. God dispenses His grace as He see fit. The dispensations fit into His purpose.

    What does the end of this prayer have to do with Moses having to take off his sandals? The throne of grace was made available to all believers when the veil of the temple was torn during the crucifixion of Jesus. We still have only two covenants—the covenant of law and the covenant of grace.

    You have seen the point I was trying to make to you. There was that dispensation that Moses lived, and another in the shedding of blood by Jesus Christ. There was a covenant of law with grace, and after the stoning of Stephen, Pentecost, and the Damascus Road we find there is the grace of God come through the faith of Jesus Christ.

    You are a “dispensationalist”, for you know you cannot be saved under that covenant of Israel, with its works under the law and its ordinances.

    No, whenever a Christian prays, he is before the throne of grace. There are only two covenants—the covenant of law and the covenant of grace.

    </font>[/QUOTE]So then we agree that prayer is not for we today. You are able to see this for you are a dispensationalist. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  6. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    ituttut wrote,
    Please accept my apology for this error.

    ituttut also wrote,

    God is not a soap dispenser! The grace of God is not “dispensed”—it is “conferred.” The multitude of styles of soap dispensers on the market today does not support your notion of a multitude of dispensations. I have some work to do—I hope to get back with you later.

    Shalom!

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    ituttut wrote,

    I am not seeing two gospels. There is only one gospel—the good news about Jesus. And there is only one Jesus. There are two covenants, depicted as early as Genesis 2:9 by the two trees in the garden and Genesis 16 by the two women,

    Gen. 2:8. The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed.
    9. Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
    10. Now a river flowed out of Eden to water the garden; and from there it divided and became four rivers.
    11. The name of the first is Pishon; it flows around the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold.
    12. The gold of that land is good; the bdellium and the onyx stone are there.
    13. The name of the second river is Gihon; it flows around the whole land of Cush.
    14. The name of the third river is Tigris; it flows east of Assyria. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.
    15. Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it.
    16. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
    17. but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

    Gen. 16:1. Now Sarai, Abram's wife had borne him no children, and she had an Egyptian maid whose name was Hagar.
    2. So Sarai said to Abram, "Now behold, the LORD has prevented me from bearing children. Please go in to my maid; perhaps I will obtain children through her." And Abram listened to the voice of Sarai.
    3. After Abram had lived ten years in the land of Canaan, Abram's wife Sarai took Hagar the Egyptian, her maid, and gave her to her husband Abram as his wife.
    4. He went in to Hagar, and she conceived; and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her sight.

    Gal. 4:21. Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?
    22. For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.
    23. But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.
    24. This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.
    25. Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
    26. But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
    27. For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND."
    28. And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
    29. But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.
    30. But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."
    31. So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    A Better Ministry
    Heb. 8:1. Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
    2. a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.
    3. For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer.
    4. Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;
    5. who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, "SEE," He says, "THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN."
    6. But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
    A New Covenant
    7. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
    8. For finding fault with them, He says, "BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
    9. NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
    10. "FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
    11. "AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
    12. "FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."
    13. When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

    The Old and the New
    9:1. Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary.
    2. For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holy place.
    3. Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies,
    4. having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron's rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant;
    5. and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat; but of these things we cannot now speak in detail.
    6. Now when these things have been so prepared, the priests are continually entering the outer tabernacle performing the divine worship,
    7. but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance.
    8. The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing,
    9. which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience,
    10. since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.
    11. But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
    12. and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
    13. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh,
    14. how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
    15. For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
    16. For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it.
    17. For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.
    18. Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood.
    19. For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
    20. saying, "THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU."
    21. And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood.
    22. And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
    23. Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
    24. For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
    25. nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.
    26. Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
    27. And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
    28. so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

    One Sacrifice of Christ Is Sufficient
    10:1. For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near.
    2. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins?
    3. But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year.
    4. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
    5. Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME;
    6. IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE.
    7. "THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME (IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME) TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.' "
    8. After saying above, "SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them" (which are offered according to the Law),
    9. then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL." He takes away the first in order to establish the second.
    10. By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
    11. Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins;
    12. but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,
    13. waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.
    14. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
    15. And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,
    16. "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," He then says,
    17. "AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
    18. Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.
    A New and Living Way
    19. Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,
    20. by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,
    21. and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
    22. let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
    23. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;
    24. and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,
    25. not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. (NASB, 1995)
     
  9. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    God is not a soap dispenser! The grace of God is not “dispensed”—it is “conferred.” The multitude of styles of soap dispensers on the market today does not support your notion of a multitude of dispensations. I have some work to do—I hope to get back with you later.

    Shalom!

    [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]The “dispensations” keep us clean. This is what it is all about. II Corinthians 7:1, ” Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.”

    Are not medicines dispensed to the sick? This is a “sick” world. God “dispenses” His Word as He sees fit, whenever, however, and to whomever, wherever they may be. We are clean, and they are burning. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  10. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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  11. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    I am not seeing two gospels. There is only one gospel—the good news about Jesus. And there is only one Jesus. There are two covenants, depicted as early as Genesis 2:9 by the two trees in the garden and Genesis 16 by the two women,

    You make good points Craig, but I have been led to see otherwise, which is certainly not for all in His Body.

    Gen. 2:8. The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed.
    9. Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
    10. Now a river flowed out of Eden to water the garden; and from there it divided and became four rivers.
    11. The name of the first is Pishon; it flows around the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold.
    12. The gold of that land is good; the bdellium and the onyx stone are there.
    13. The name of the second river is Gihon; it flows around the whole land of Cush.
    14. The name of the third river is Tigris; it flows east of Assyria. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.
    15. Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it.
    16. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
    17. but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

    The first Adam, the first human son of God that He created.

    Gen. 16:1. Now Sarai, Abram's wife had borne him no children, and she had an Egyptian maid whose name was Hagar.
    2. So Sarai said to Abram, "Now behold, the LORD has prevented me from bearing children. Please go in to my maid; perhaps I will obtain children through her." And Abram listened to the voice of Sarai.
    3. After Abram had lived ten years in the land of Canaan, Abram's wife Sarai took Hagar the Egyptian, her maid, and gave her to her husband Abram as his wife.
    4. He went in to Hagar, and she conceived; and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her sight.

    Gal. 4:21. Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?

    I believe we must make distinctions where they exist. Galatians is written to, and for, both Gentile and Jew, but some passages are specifically directed to the Jew, and in addressing them specifically in some passages, points to the Gentile also wishing to Go Under The Law.

    Galatians 4:2-6, ”But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. 3. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: 4. But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5. To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.” Is it possible here to determine to whom Paul is speaking to in these first verses? Who was under a “schoolmaster” in the “curse of the law”? They are the physical seed of Abraham. These Christians wish to go under the law, to observe the ordinances, the Sabbath’s, the Festival’s of the Old Covenant. The Jew is now out of school and all grown-up, and no longer servants, but adopted sons through Christ (Verse 7). We Gentile adopted sons also are not to wish to try and emulate, or desire, to be as was the Jew.

    22. For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.
    23. But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.
    24. This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.
    25. Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
    26. But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
    27. For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND."
    28. And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
    29. But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.
    30. But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."
    31. So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

    [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Mark 1:1-2, The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; 2. as it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.” This prophecy became reality. The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ was by His forerunner, John the Baptist. That gospel is you “must” repent, and you must be water baptized for the remission of your sins. Even these “free” were under the curse of the law. We cannot change His Word to mean something else, if we believe in that “gospel” that is directed only to His own people, in that day. His Nation refused Jesus Christ, their King, and His kingdom that was at hand. Time ran out on them. They had “one year” from Pentecost to accept the offer. They didn’t, and they (the nation) were cut-off. Another “new” gospel is then preached, and Peter acknowledges same.

    As to the Two Covenants, please notice these covenants are to two (earthly) seeds that came from Abraham, the Hebrew. Neither of these seeds are wholly heathen Gentiles. Both of these race’s are of the seed of earthly Abraham. This to me means God made covenant with Abraham concerning the descendants that came from first Hagar, and then from Sarai. Those of “covenant” are “Arabs”, and “Jews”. As we go through history we see a breaking up of the Jew who has the blessings of God, and then we have the Samaritans that sprang from the pure line of Israel. That still leaves most of the other world heathen without a covenant.

    This is what makes “our (gentile heathens) salvation so wonderful”. He did not have to, but He did. Did what? Brought us into His “ new covenant”. But are we included in either of those “Old Covenants”. No. There is a “New Covenant”, ”But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second, Hebrew 8:6-7.

    Paul tells us in II Corinthians 5:16-17, ”Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” This is in harmony with the above verses 6 and 7, and also with Hebrew 8:13, ”In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.” That “old” has passed away, and the “new” applies today. This “Third covenant” is the dispensation we today live in.

    We were not brought into that “Old Covenant” as it was never meant to be so. God hid “we Gentile’s in the Body of Christ with the Jew” from the beginning. Absurd some may say, but not Paul, as stated in I Corinthians 2. But this could not be done until Damascus Road.

    Can we afford to Stop at Two Covenant’s? Not me for I am now included, and was never included before (except in the mind of God). Chapter 13:20 tells us this “New Covenant” is the everlasting covenant coming through the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  12. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    It is encouraging that we speak together as the day draws nearer, for our faith is in Him. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  13. Faith alone

    Faith alone New Member

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    iuttut,

    Could you explain your views on dispensationalism, and how that affects Bible interpretation?

    Thx,

    FA
     
  14. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Thanks for asking Faith alone: I’ll endeavor to not make this too long.

    Hopefully not to confuse the issue, first of all I am saved by the Grace of God through the Faith of Jesus Christ, without any work/s on my part, for He has fulfilled all, and did all of the work. He died for me, and I was buried with Him at the Cross, thus being dead to the law, and alive in Him, all sins forgiven at that time for all that believe on His name for salvation.

    As this is what I believe, I must believe “a dispensation” was given by Christ Jesus from heaven to His one heavenly Apostle, Paul, for this is what scripture tells me (Ephesians 3), or do I believe what was before “this dispensation” that was before Damascus Road? Before Damascus Road the Gentile could not enter into the Temple, and certainly not into the Holy place, much less the Most Holy Place.

    For me to be approved to God, I believe I must correctly divide His Word – ”Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth,” II Timothy 2:15. I do find some truth in the writings of men, but if they do not agree with the Word, the Word is contradicted, and not rightly divided. I believe our God is a God of “division”. He tells us this in the very first verse of the Bible, His Word. It continues on after that as seen in Genesis 1:3.

    Without going into great detail, to answer your question I’ll use the late Pastor Stam’s word of the Berean Bible Society in His understandable book, “Things that Differ”. The book offers the “fundamentals of dispensationalism”.

    Quote “What Is A Dispensation?” While the principles of God have to do with His character, His nature, the dispensations of God concern His dealings with those under Him, especially with man.” Unquote. Most see me as an Ultra-dispensationalist, but He further explains this long menacing word has a very simple meaning from its root. Dispense simply means to “deal out”. Just as medicine is “dispensed” or “dealt out”, God “dispenses” His grace in the appropriate manner, and a dispensation covers a period of time.

    Back to what I derive in study of His Word is “gospel’s” that “cover period’s of time”. I believe we have the everlasting gospel (Revelation 14:6-7), that in time is eternalized in every one of His dispensation’s to bring about His will. God works through men, and these dealings (dealing out) with man are what got us to Jesus. The law and the prophets were until John, but since that time the kingdom of God is preached and every man pressed into it, Luke 16:12. John the Baptist’s gospel was the “kingdom is at hand”, and this gospel is not the same as the previous gospel, for the “kingdom was previously not at hand”.

    Is John the Baptist’s gospel relevant to us today? In a way yes; but no we cannot (or should not) hold this gospel in our heart today. Why? Shouldn’t we be looking to be in the Body of Christ, being caught up to Him before the Time of Jacob’s trouble comes? So I see two things that now must occur before that gospel of John the Baptist can be fulfilled. Today we are not in Law & Prophecy, and we are not in that dispensation of the immediacy of the “kingdom at hand”. For that Kingdom that was/will be, to arrive, the Rapture must occur, and then the Tribulation. I believe we are in that “secret” dispensation of God, the forming of the Body of Christ Church. Jesus must have an inheritance, and we are it. The Gentile was never promised a kingdom, so although I will be in the “kingdom of God”, I will be in Christ Jesus that has His own Kingdom. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  15. Faith alone

    Faith alone New Member

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    Thx,

    I've been away for awhile...

    I've always viewed John the Baptizer's "gospel" as not so much a gospel as we tend to think of it today as a going before the Messiah to prepare hearts for the Him.

    A person will not respond to the gospel unless they recognize their own sin and need for a Savior. John 16:8-11 speaks of this. That was the purpose of John's ministry... to prepare people for Christ when He came. Hence his was a gospel of repentance.

    Thoughts?

    BTW, any way to get the forum to send you an email when someone responds to a thread you were posting in, like other forums do?

    FA
     
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