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Saved by Grace Alone, Justified by Faith Alone

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by AustinC, Oct 14, 2021.

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  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    There is not ONE verse in the 66 Books of the Holy Bible, that says a sinner is "justified by faith alone". This is no more than speculative theology! Jesus Christ has said more than once, that the sinner must also REPENT of their sins, as He does in Mark 1:15; Luke 13:1-5; 24:47 (ESV/NASB/CSB/NIV); and Peter in Acts 2:37-38; 3:19, etc.

    It is not Paul who is wrong, but your understanding of what the Bible actually does say!
     
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  2. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    James 2:24, "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone"
     
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  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    ...and I've no doubt it's gonna be the same ol' juvenile yapping about me being a RCC operative peddling the Council of Trent...sheesh
     
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  4. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Galatians 2:15-16
    We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

    There you go. If we are justified by faith and not by works, what do you propose is the other means of justification, besides faith? You can't claim works. Paul already takes that off the table.

    Paul tells us we are saved by grace (at least twice) so what would you add to grace? We know from the above passage that faith justifies, so it cannot be faith that saves.
    What would you require (knowing that any legal requirement nullifies grace.)?
     
  5. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Sometimes I think you play “devils advocate” in stirring up the threads. :)

    Must come from wearing the sweat band and dark glasses.

    Sure can’t be the grin.
     
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  6. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    So Paul was wrong?
    We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

    James is not saying works justify a person before God. He is saying that works justify and prove that a person has faith. James was dealing with people who were claiming faith, but there was no evidence of faith in their lives. When Paul discusses justification by faith, in both Romans and Galatians, he takes pains to prove that no one is justified by works. It takes him the first 11 chapters of Romans to work this out and bring up all the objections against it so he can systematically dismantle the objection.
    Exactly how many pages of argument by Paul will it take to have you admit that one sentence from James must be understood by the chapters that explain justification by faith? Tell me, is 13 chapters not enough for you?
     
  7. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    That's a poke at me. The RCC teaches justification by grace plus works. kyredneck teaches the same thing. Make the connection.
     
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  8. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I know, but he really does stir the mix sometimes, and I enjoy many of his posts.
     
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  9. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I thought the RCC position was three level.

    That is faith + sacraments + sanctification works brought justification, that a lack in any of the three was insufficient for justification to take place.

    Sort of like another poster who claims one must prove himself to God before God notices the sincerity and then positions that person as credible.
     
  10. Silverhair

    Silverhair Active Member

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    And yet we are told that the Holy Spirit/God convicts us. Joh 16:8 If then we can be convicted then that means we can think. Now we know that God has said we have no excuse for not knowing there is a God. Rom 1:20 We have creation to point us to Him.

    So if God has said that He desires that all come to a saving knowledge of Him 1Ti 2:4 then He must expect that we can do that. Correct.

    I admit that I am surprised at those that hold to the deterministic view. They will say that man has the free will to sin but for some strange reason he does not have the free will to turn Christ Jesus in faith. If that were indeed true then you would have to say that the only reason that anyone is in hell is because God did not give them the ability to trust in Christ Jesus for salvation.

    God wants us to know Him and has given use the ability to know Him. We are judged on how we use that God given ability.
     
    #30 Silverhair, Oct 14, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
  11. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    You avoid the topic with this post.
    Saved by grace.
    Justified by faith.
     
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  12. Silverhair

    Silverhair Active Member

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    You can think what you want it really does not change my mind. I have told you that your theology, determinism, would require you to have no ability to make any choices thus would make you no more than a robot but you disagree so be it.

    If you cannot see that God wants us to make choices re our salvation then that is what it is. I say He does want us to do so and has given us the free will to do just that. You disagree and want God to be the one that picks you out, if you are so lucky, for salvation. I do not see God as doing that. So we leave it at that.

    How can my post be of topic as your the one that is claiming something for Gal 2:15-16 that is not there. But you read it as you want. You need your determinism to make you feel saved, I do not.

    If God wants to save someone because of their faith in Christ Jesus who are you to tell Him He cannot do that. Do you really think you have the right to tell God what to do?
     
  13. Silverhair

    Silverhair Active Member

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    You got it wrong there Austin. We are saved by GOD. God saves us/justifies us because of our faith.

    But lets get back to a question I put to you in post # 6

    Austin let me get this straight, you are saying that belief in Christ Jesus because He is the promised Messiah is different than having faith in Christ Jesus because He is the promised Messiah. How so?

    You then say >>that we are justified by faith (not saved by faith) alone,<<. I fully agree that we are not saved by faith, we are saved by God because of our faith. So we are in agreement there. But then you added >> apart from works.<< Are you now putting forward that salvation requires some works on our part? If so then what works would those be? Are you saying that the atonement of Christ Jesus was not sufficient to pay the sin debt of mankind?

    So what is your answer to the question? And it can't be of topic as it comes right from your text.
     
  14. Silverhair

    Silverhair Active Member

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    Austin I think you are finally getting it. God saves us by His grace. You just seem to think that he gave that grace to those special elect ones before the foundation of the world and on top of that for no reason at all. But the bible shows something different . We are saved by grace through faith. You just cannot seem to grasp that right now but perhaps you will in time.
     
  15. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    post broken into parts to properly address the points

    The Scriptures teach that the work of the Holy Spirit in the world is to convict of three things- “And having come, He will convict the world concerning sin, and concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment:”

    Yet, when looking at Romans, we find when faith comes.

    Some mistake conviction as a sign of the availability of salvation, but we are told that only Godly repentance can save and the worldly sorrow brings death.

    It is important to remember that Godly repentance was offered in that letter to believers, and that worldly sorrow was the best the unbeliever could accomplish.

    How then does the unbeliever “think?” The unbeliever can only think and comprehend within the boundaries established by God. For example, do not the Scriptures state that the unbeliever considers the preaching of the cross foolishness? They are not given the capacity to comprehend the spiritual matters of the Scriptures.


    Why? Because we might consider it “unfair” if He did not?

    Consider the pharaoh and even the Israeli of Christ’s day. Did they have the freedom to respond, or had God already presented His authority to harden and blind?

    God’s ways of understanding far exceeds our own, and He does not answer to us about what is fair, for knows what is necessary for the completion of His plan.

    Is not Christ, God?
    Then why in that garden did He have to demonstrate submission to what we might view as unfair. For the creator of all that is would be put to death by sin filled creation? Yet, was it not the will of the Father as unfair as it seem to us.


    Because humankind has the free will to choose from all that is offered of this world. Even the Lord said, “you know how to give good gifts.” So there is discernment about what is evil and good. But such freedom of the will does not extend to heaven.

    Humanity was cut off from the tree of life and has no authority to access that tree for it abides in Heaven.

    Therefore, how is it that a mere human can decide to ascend to heaven and take from that tree?
    For 4000 years the closest one to such entitlement was Methuselah because he pleased God. And it is possible that Methuselah knew both Adam and Noah and heard from both. Yet, God took him the year before the flood.


    Certainly, every believer will stand before the Christ and give an account.

    This is Paul’s wish - “That I may know Him and ….”
     
  16. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Did Jonah avoid going to Nineveh? Did God make him willing to go?

    Was Moses desirous to go to Egypt? Did God make him willing to go?

    What of Paul, of the Apostles, of the multitudes that have gone because God made them willing to go.

    Finally we have to ask of the process of the making willing and how is it accomplished.

    It is as God instructed Ezekiel to declare to wicked vile Israel:
    22“Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. 23And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Lord GOD, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. 24I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. 28You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.29And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. 30I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations.

    32It is not for your sake that I will act,
    declares the Lord GOD; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.​

    The God of every believer of every age has experienced this very manifestation of His Glory
     
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  17. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I do get it. God saves us by unmerited favor.
    God does not save us because of our faith.
    Silverhair, you preach a graceless salvation. You require man to do before God can act.
    Finally, this thread has nothing to do with election. You bring it up as a red herring to avoid the actual topic at hand. I have seen you repeatedly go off-topic like this.
    Focus.
    Saved by grace.
    Justified by faith.

    No works. No requirements before God can...
     
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  18. Silverhair

    Silverhair Active Member

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    I am not questioning if God can make someone will to do something, of course He can. But making someone willing is not the same as drawing someone to Him that is unless you think draw = drag.
     
  19. Silverhair

    Silverhair Active Member

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    >>Some mistake conviction as a sign of the availability of salvation, but we are told that only Godly repentance can save and the worldly sorrow brings death. <<



    So if I am to understand you correctly the Holy Spirit is basically being disingenuous. I am amazed that you have such a low view of the work of the Holy Spirit. What do you think He is doing when He convicts someone, is He just doing that so when the person goes to hell the Holy Spirit can say well at least I tried but they just would not listen.



    For the life of me I will never understand how some people can have such a low view of the love of God for His creation. You will not or cannot accept what scripture says if it does not fit your predetermined theology. Is it that hard to believe that God actually does love His creation and really does want them all to be saved. God is sovereign and if He has decided that man can have a free will so as to chose salvation through faith in Christ Jesus then who is to say no. Yet that is what I see coming from the Calvinist camp all the time.



    >>Why? Because we might consider it “unfair” if He did not? <<



    No, it’s because God says that He desires all to come to a saving knowledge of Him. Are you suggesting that God said that knowing that they could not do it. Notice I did not say would not but said could not. Fairness has nothing to do with salvation, justice does. Do think that God is unjust in His dealings with mankind?



    >>But such freedom of the will does not extend to heaven.<<



    So now I see where you are coming from. If, as you say, man has no free will then the only why he can be saved is if God picks them. So what we have is that for those that are in hell they can honestly say that since they had no free will to chose God then they are condemned because God never gave them the chance to believe.



    Look at what you are saying about the love of God. Do you really think He is like that?



    >>Certainly, every believer will stand before the Christ and give an account.<<



    You failed to address the main point here. It is not that we will be judged it is that God wants ALL people to know Him not just some. Under the view you are presenting God does not allow for the majority of mankind to even know Him. And yet they will be judged for not knowing Him.





    PS Just an aside here. You see that I use >><< to mark out quotes. But I see that you and others have a different way of getting the quotes in. Do you just do multi quotes or just one quote of the post and then just cut into it.
     
  20. Silverhair

    Silverhair Active Member

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    Austin lets try this again and please try to answer the question this time.This is the third time now so perhaps you will be able to get to it this time. see post # 6 & # 33

    Austin let me get this straight, you are saying that belief in Christ Jesus because He is the promised Messiah is different than having faith in Christ Jesus because He is the promised Messiah. How so?

    You then say >>that we are justified by faith (not saved by faith) alone,<<. I fully agree that we are not saved by faith, we are saved by God because of our faith. So we are in agreement there. But then you added >> apart from works.<< Are you now putting forward that salvation requires some works on our part? If so then what works would those be? Are you saying that the atonement of Christ Jesus was not sufficient to pay the sin debt of mankind?
     
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