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Saved by Grace not of works !

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, Nov 2, 2011.

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  1. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    You have proved nothing.
    Hope thou in God. Yes, it is a command.
    That doesn't mean hope is a work. Will you pay me for the hope that I do?
    Doesn't make sense does it. Hoping is not something that can be done; it is not a work, though it is a command to be obeyed, just like "having faith in God," is a command to be obeyed. Neither one is a work.

    Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

    Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

    Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    To him that works not but has faith, that man is counted justified.
    It can't be any clearer can it.
    Will you believe the Scriptures?
     
    #101 DHK, Mar 5, 2012
  2. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Eph 2:8-9 is a refutation of your carelessness with scripture, for vs 9 should prevent you from teaching that Faith is an condition to get saved, for thats making something man does a condition to salvation which returns right back to salvation by works !

    Eph 2:8-9 simply teaches that Salvation by Grace through Faith is the Gift of God !

    Not of works, which means, not by anything we have done. The word works is the greek word ergon and means:

    business, employment, that which any one is occupied

    a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

    2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

    3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

    An act is a work, a deed is work, a thing done is work, anything accomplished by the mind is a work, any product whatever is work.

    You do not believe it, it is to your peril, that word works is inspired by God !
     
    #102 savedbymercy, Mar 5, 2012
  3. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    dhk

    Thats because you ignore scripture.

    You need to see the definition of a work post 102
     
    #103 savedbymercy, Mar 5, 2012
  4. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    dhk says

    ps 103:18

    To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them.


    The word do here is the hebrew word `asah and means:



    to do, fashion, accomplish, make

    a) (Qal)

    1) to do, work, make, produce

    a) to do

    b) to work

    c) to deal (with)

    d) to act, act with effect, effect

    and dhk says doing a commandment is not a work !
     
    #104 savedbymercy, Mar 5, 2012
  5. mandym

    mandym New Member

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    Prove this is a biblical definition of "works".
     
    #105 mandym, Mar 5, 2012
  6. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    I already gave the definition of works in a previous post. Read it !
     
    #106 savedbymercy, Mar 5, 2012
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Try this again. This time try rightly dividing the word of truth.
     
    #107 DHK, Mar 5, 2012
  8. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    A Quote by William Styles !

    Not that I blindly take the words of any man, but here is a quote from a Writer Willaim Styles:

    I agree Rom 11:5-6

    5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

    6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
     
    #108 savedbymercy, Mar 5, 2012
  9. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    You will not receive the Truth, I have showed it to you over and over ! Believing or Faith is something man does, it is a work !
     
    #109 savedbymercy, Mar 5, 2012
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    When Romans 4:4,5 clearly say they are not works how do you deny the Scriptures and say they are. You simply contradict the Scriptures like they are non-existent and substitute your own philosophy.
     
    #110 DHK, Mar 5, 2012
  11. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    dhk

    Rom 4:4-5 does not say that Faith and believing are not works ! They in fact deny what you teach, that one is saved by their works, something that you do See Post 102
     
    #111 savedbymercy, Mar 5, 2012
  12. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    To him that worketh not--no work
    But to him that believeth or has faith--no work
    This man is justified. Why? He is justified by faith and not by works as the verse clearly teaches.

    Romans 4:6-7 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying,

    Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
     
    #112 DHK, Mar 5, 2012
  13. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    I have no problem with the quote, but your error is that you oppose the very teaching and promote salvation by man doing something, for believing is a work See Post 102 !
     
    #113 savedbymercy, Mar 5, 2012
  14. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    NO, your post in 102 supports me and opposes you, especially as you define "works." Faith does not fit into the definition of works.

    Stephen Hawkings is one man that is paid for the "use of his mind." His work involves his mind, his thinking, etc., that goes into his work. Yet the man is an unbeliever refusing to have faith in God. See the difference.
    Faith is not a work. Faith is not defined, even in your definition, as a work.
    Your problem is a straight denial of Scripture. You fail to deal honestly with Romans 4:4,5 which clearly states that faith or belief is not a work, but it is that--faith that justifies us. A denial of that truth is a denial of the Word of God (Rom.5:1).
     
    #114 DHK, Mar 5, 2012
  15. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    dhk

    Only in your imagination, which is deceived. You teach salvation by works, something man did. Believing, Hoping, placing Faith in are things men do !

    Sure it does, its something done by the Mind, the Intelligence. The Mind is an component of the Heart, to believe with Heart Rom 10:9 is to believe in the Mind that which has been revealed. It is to credit something as True.


    Rom 10:9

    9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    The word believe is an action verb performed by man. Now , you teach that man gets saved by performing that action, which is with the Heart or Mind

    The word Heart is the greek word kardia and means:


    the heart
    that organ in the animal body which is the centre of the circulation of the blood, and hence was regarded as the seat of physical life
    denotes the centre of all physical and spiritual life
    the vigour and sense of physical life
    the centre and seat of spiritual life
    the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavours
    of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence

    Now the definition of the inspired word work is:

    business, employment, that which any one is occupied

    a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

    2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

    3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

    There you have it, you teach one gets saved by an act , something DONE with the Mind !

    Thats Salvation by works.

    I understand this is a difficult truth to swallow, for if it be True, which it is, you and many others have built their house on sand, on the work of man and not Christ !

    Neither of those scriptures states that Faith is not a work. Paul is stating there that one instead of being Justified by works, or something they did, that they find out about their Justification through God given Faith, and so they believe the revelation. So believing that something is True about one by having it revealed, opposes having to do something or perform something to make it True !

    The elect by nature try to do things to make themselves Just with God, Religion, but they find out in God's Time that they have been made Right with God by the Work of Christ and Righteousness Imputed, hence Justification by works ceases , because of what has been revealed by Faith !

    Thats is what Rom 4:4-5 means . When Paul says that ones Faith is counted as Righteousness, He means Christ has been revealed to be Ones Righteousness [A Righteousness revealed from Heaven Rom 1:17] 1 Cor 1:30

    30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

    Now either Christ is your Righteousness or your act of Faith or belief is your credited Righteousness. No middle Ground !

    So next time you bring up Rom 4:4-5, just refer to this post !
     
    #115 savedbymercy, Mar 6, 2012
  16. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Since when did I DO hope? You are hopeless. Do you work at that?
    I don't believe with a muscle the size of my fist that pumps blood 24/7 all my life long. The heart is the mind, in the context that the Bible uses it.
    No I don't. He has faith. In receiving the gift of God he receives it by faith. No action is required. There is about as much action as my child receiving a gift from me at her birthday party. She receives it by faith that it is a gift beneficial to her and not a stone or a serpent--something detrimental to her. For I her father that loves her. How much more shall my heavenly Father give good things to them that love Him. What do I do to obtain those gifts? Receive them by faith. Faith is not a work.
    It is the mind in Scripture.
    Faith is not using one's mind to do work, the type of work that Hawking's does. Faith is believing, trust, confidence. It is confidence in the word of another.

    Romans 4:20-21 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
    --Faith is being fully persuaded that what God had promised God would do.
    That is what faith is. It is not a work. Abraham was a man of faith.
    I believe the Word of God; you believe your philosophy which you have presented. I stand on the Word of God. Your house will fall.
    Well, that is as good as a lie.
    Nowhere in that passage, and nowhere in the Bible does it say that God gives faith to the unsaved. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Faith is a spiritual gift. God does not give spiritual fruit to the unsaved. The unsaved have innate faith. They have the ability to believe without God giving them anything. That is why it is not a work. They have the choice to choose between right and wrong. That is one of the things that makes man different than animals, one of the characteristics that God gave man when He made him in His image.
    Therefore being justified by faith (his own faith), we have peace with God.
    It doesn't say: Therefore being justified by (God's faith) we have peace with God. We are not forced by God to be justified. Your view is unorthodox and unbiblical.
    Truth needs to be revealed. It is accepted by faith. Faith is not a work. It never was. The acceptation of a gift, even truth, is not a work.
    The elect are already justified.
    Those not yet elect are justified by their faith, the faith that they choose to put in Christ. Then they have peace with God. Thank God I don't have your extreme Calvinism. No wonder you can't understand these Scriptures where it says so plainly that faith is a gift; salvation is a gift.
    Romans 4:4,5 is so confusing to you; so confusing that you even deny the meaning of it when the verse is so simple and clear.
    Garbage. Abraham was counted righteous because he believed, not because God believed for him. What an absurd belief. He was counted righteous by faith and faith alone. Therefore it was not by works, but to him that works not, and believes on him that justifies the ungodly. Understand what that verse means without reading your Calvinism into it.
    There is no middle ground. Either you are justified by faith (yours) or you are not justified at all. Next time Rom.4:4,5 is brought up, be sure you do a better study on it. Consult some better commentaries.
     
    #116 DHK, Mar 6, 2012
  17. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    dhk

    I do not know what you have done.

    I do know that hope is something man is commanded to do ! Ps 130:7

    Let Israel hope in the LORD: for with the LORD there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption.

    In the hebrew the word hope is an imperative. An Imperative is:

    This verb class indicates an order or a command.
     
    #117 savedbymercy, Mar 6, 2012
  18. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    If it is an imperative obey it. You are obligated.
    That doesn't mean that hope is a "work", does it?
    What category of "works" does it fall into?
    What kind of employer would hire you for "hoping"?
    Please tell me. I'll apply for the position right away!
    Obviously it is not a "work." One doesn't DO hope. It is an intangible.
     
    #118 DHK, Mar 6, 2012
  19. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    dhk

    A command is something man is told to Do !

    See post 115
     
    #119 savedbymercy, Mar 6, 2012
  20. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Like:
    Lord, save us. hmmm.
    Believe on the Lord. Have faith in Him. These are not things one does, as in works, but are commands obeyed. Not all commands are "works." "Think" about it.
    Where is your heart? Do you have a heartfelt desire? Is that work?
     
    #120 DHK, Mar 6, 2012
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