SAVED even if you don't reject 1Cor 12 and 1cor 14?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
My appeal starts out from and CONTINUES from a "sola-scriptura" basis in ALL 66 books. No slicing and dicing God's Word into "not-the-bible" vs "yes-good-bible".

Obvviously not - however you keep slinging that empty accusation around AS IF you had ever provided even ONE example of ACTUAL proof - without ever actually doing it!!

There are "some readers" here that this kind of "we are right because we always SAY we are right" tactic works on perfectly. (Steaver comes to mind).

But HOW can you possibly be certain that ALL readers will fail to be objective or unbiased sir??

You rely on that so heavily - do you really think objective unbiased readers will never see the thread??

I do not challenge your ability in that area - I simply insist that you SHOW some part of your vaccuous accusations to hold water in fact.


. But what does the Bible really say:

And thus ENDs your failed argument DHK.

next!!

Wrong. Blatantly emphatically uncategorically dead wrong sir!

The rebuke is NOT "hey too many people have gifts"!!

SUCH a rebuke would go TO GOD because Paul ALREADY stated in 1Cor 12 that "IT IS GOD" that gives those gifts AS HE WILLS.

In 1Cor 14 Paul argues "I WISH THAT YOU ALL spoke in tongues" and even adds "I speak in tongues MORE THAN YOU ALL" He also stated that ALL should "DESIRE EARNESTLY SPIRITUAL GIFTS but ESPECIALLY that you may prophesy" 1Cor 14:1.

Your twist and wrench of scripture in the case above is aggregious sir!! It is could ONLY appeal to the ignorance of the reader!

What reader would/could possibly fall for it???

(Well ok - you may have found such a reader) but under normal circumstances would you really expect to find such readers??

This is absolutly astounding that you could bend the text of scripture as you have done above DHK!!

Is there NO limit with you on this??

The "two or three THEN interpret" formula was SPECIFICALLY directed at ONE GIFT -- tongues. AND NO limit was placed on the total -- just an orderly sequence of two or three followed by interpretation.

Your wild imaginings here are not even remotely exegesis.

BY CONTRAST what we DO find in the text regarding prophecy is that INSTEAD of shutting DOWN the gift Paul argues that IN the most extreme case where ONE is standing and relating the revelation GIVEN TO THEM and while speaking ANOTHER who is sitting suddenly gets a revelation then the FIRST is to be silenced and the service is to be interrupted by allowing the one seated to speak. WHY? Because this unique gift is under DIRECT timing from God! Totally NOT like Tongues.

The DETAILS show that PAUL NEVER questions the SOURCE of the gifts in 1Cor 12 OR 1Cor 14 -- these are not FAKE gifts that SHOULD be condemned -- rather Paul is speaking to REAL gifts that are to be wisely used!!

Your entire response in 1Cor 14 arguing that the ABUSE is that TOO MANY people HAVE gifts is totally left-field wild-assertion!

Where do you come up with this stuff DHK!!??

We will continue to zero in on this glaring example of your tactics to try and discover just how serious you are in looking openly and objectively at the subjects that are being raised here.

in Christ,

Bob

 

1Cor 14


1 Corinthians 14
1 Pursue love, yet [b]desire earnestly[/b] spiritual gifts, [b]but especially that you may prophesy.[/b]
2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
3 But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation.[/b]
4 [One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.
5 Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies[/b] than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.


1Cor 14
23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
24 But [b]if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all;
25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.
26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.




In this instruction Paul PREFERS prophecy and argues in favor of it --clearly. The outcome predicted is that ALL will be done for edification if THIS instruction is followed! There is NO "Each one has a revelation and that is a BAD thing" in this chapter.



31 For you can all prophesy one by one[/b], so that all may learn and all may be exhorted;
32 and the [b]spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;
33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.



1Cor 14
39 Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy[/b], and do not forbid to speak in tongues.
40 But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner


SUMMARY: As we can ALL see from the above - the argument in 1Cor 14 is not about FAKE gifts NOR even a complaint that God has "given too many gifts to too many people" RATHER it is about correct stewardship of REAL spiritual gifts and about the preference for the REAL gift of Prophecy OVER the REAL gift of tongues as well as the RIGHT exercise of the TRUE gift of tongues. Never does Paul "question the GIFT" but in several places he corrects the practice by imposing rules for ORDER on the group. VERY DIFFERENT rules for tongues vs prophecy as we shall see.

However as obvious as all this may be -- DHK elects to turn a blind eye to the entire chapter and imagine the following --

Contrary to DHK's wild speculation we SEE in the quotes above that Paul does not complain that they HAVE the gifts RATHER he complains that they do not practice them IN ORDER -- in sequence so that ALL can benefit from ALL the gifts!

Now we will show Non-SDA sources who EASILY see this obvious fact in 1 Cor 14

in Christ,

Bob

 

John Darby 1Cor 14:26
Gifts were abundant in Corinth. Having regulated that which concerned moral questions, the apostle in the second place regulates the exercise of those gifts. Every one came with some manifestation of the power of the Holy Ghost, of which they evidently thought more than of conformity to Christ. Nevertheless the apostle acknowledges in it the power of the Spirit of God, and gives rules for its exercise. Two or three might speak with tongues, provided there was an interpreter, so that the assembly might be edified. And this was to be done one at a time, for it appears they even spoke several at once. In the same way as to the prophets: two or three might speak, the others would judge if it really came from God. For, if it were given to them of God, all might prophesy; but only one at a time, that all might learn-a dependence always good for the most gifted prophets-and that all might be comforted. The spirits of the prophets (that is to say, the impulse of the power in the exercise of gifts) were subject to the guidance of the moral intelligence which the Spirit bestowed on the prophets.
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/DarbysSynopsisofNewTestament/dby.cgi?book=1co&chapter=014


John S.C Abbott and Jacob Abbott
Verse 26
Every one of you hath, &c.; that is, you severally have various gifts and attainments. Use them in such a manner as will conduce to the edifying of the church.
http://www.studylight.org/com/ain/view.cgi?book=1co&chapter=014


However -- though these are non-SDA scholars who do agree with my statement showing that Paul is NOT complaining that TOO MANY people have been given gifts by God and are coming to church willing to minister to the church with the gifts has given -- I believe the point is still obvious to all Adventist or not.

Having said that - I have to give DHK some slack for his poor interpretation supposing that scripture is complaining about too many people having been gifted by God with spiritual gifts and too many coming to church on the same day all willing to minister to the church.

As nonsensical as that POV is to construct - I am sure DHK found a large number of commentaries willing to climb out on that limb. As poorly constructed as it is - yet it is NOT purely a product of DHK's own wild imagining as I first thought.


Credit where credit is due.

Still the correct view will show that Paul is CONTINUALLY urging for MORE focus on acquiring spiritual gifts -- particularly prophecy and his only COMPLAINT is that certain rules of order are not being followed. The bogus notion that "God gave women gifts and he should not have done it" is NOT found in 1Cor 14!! The bogus notion that some who CLAIMED to have a gift DID NOT HAVE one is also NOT found in 1Cor 14!!


1 Corinthians 14
1 Pursue love, yet [b]desire earnestly[/b] spiritual gifts, [b]but especially that you may prophesy.[/b]
2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
3 But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation.[/b]
4 [One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.
5 Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies[/b] than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.

in Christ,

Bob

 

1Cor 14
23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all;
25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.
26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.


31 For you can all prophesy one by one[/b], so that all may learn and all may be exhorted;
32 and the [b]spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;
33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

My argument does not require that everyone show up for church every Sabbath and prophesy. My argument is fully sustained even if everyone takes turns one Sabbath at a time - and only ONE gives a revelation on any given Sabbath because the result is STILL that EVERYONE had a revelation.

Some commentaries argue that too many people among the "everyone has a revelation" were all sharing it on the same day at the same time.

But EVEN with a correction of single-file one on each Sabbath -- they would STILL have "EVERYONE having a revelation" and NO COMMENTARY objected to such a one-revelation-at-one-assembly scenario.

BUT DHK's objection not only goes to MANY revelations on at one assembly AT the same time - he objects EVEN if only ONE is given on a given day IF what is happening is that EVERYONE has a revelation and they are taking turns assembly-after-assembly because in DHK's model NO WOMEN can HAVE what God gave Philip's daughters (gift of prophecy) and what GOD SAID the Holy Spirit GAVE OUT to each one as He wills and what God said ALL were to pray for ... and what God said ANNA had


BTW DHK - Miriam is Moses' sister.


As for these FACTS of Bible history being in some cases RECORDED in a book about Bible history (the book of Acts) it does NOTHING to sustain the DHK argument that they should not exist!!

in Christ,

Bob

 

That is totally bogus. NO commentary declares that 1Cor 14 is about SATANIC GIFTS being exercised without being done in proper ORDER!!

ALL commentaries argue that 1Cor 14 is about the PROPER gifts exercised in a way that is a problem in the ORDER not a problem with a "bad gift" or a "satanic gift".

In 1 Cor 12 Paul CONTRASTS the PRIOR HISTORY of the Christians at Corinth that involve MUTE (non-speaking, non-acting impotent) idols of Pagans with the ACTIVE and POWERFUL Holy Spirit that they CURRENTLY experience!!


1 Corinthians 12
1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware.
2 You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led.
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, ""Jesus is accursed''; and no one can say, ""Jesus is Lord,'' except by the Holy Spirit.

4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.
6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
There is NOTHING in 1Cor 12 saying "revelation is sometimes a satanic gift"!!

DHK -- is there no limit?? really??

 

Hmm we finally have from DHK a well stated well reasoned response.

Credit where credit is due.

Fine - then let's approach this in the Christian Bible student model.

29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment.
30 But [b]if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent.[/b]

Now here we have an amazing contrast to tongues. Paul argues in the case of tongues that each must take their turn and in fact they must keep silent if they are not in a position to translate what they have to say in tongues. By stark contrast Prophecy is under the complete control – timing and authority of God. And since that is the case – EVEN in the extreme scenario of one who is standing and giving a message from God – IF God so chooses to move upon another who is sitting – then the first one standing is to be interrupted mid-message and must keep silent until the one just touched by God with a message is finished. This is admission that God is in absolute control. This method of “order” could not possibly work with teaching or tongues or any gift under the whim and control of man – not God.

Yet when Charismatics describe their counterfeit gift they often claim that God is taking direct action moving upon them to speak gibberish. IF such were the case – then WHO could possibly tell God “please sit down and be quiet – this will have to wait until I am at home alone since I do not have an interpretation at the moment”???

The point is that when it really is “God in control” as we see in the case of prophecy – there is no such thing as “be quiet and wait until you get home to continue letting God speak because we do not have someone to interpret”. In fact when God is in control there is ALSO no such thing as “you can not speak now because someone else is speaking and you must wait your turn”. None of that applies to prophecy – because Prophecy is the direct sovereign act of God.

31 For you can all prophesy one by one[/b], so that all may learn and all may be exhorted;
32 and the [b]spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;
33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

“you can ALL prophesy” not “only allow your MEN to prophesy” and not “only men are allowed to read scripture" so only MEN will know that they can prophesy by reading this letter”. Rather it is “you can ALL prophesy”.

 

Quote:
The "two or three THEN interpret" formula was SPECIFICALLY directed at ONE GIFT -- tongues. AND NO limit was placed on the total -- just an orderly sequence of two or three followed by interpretation.

True DHK!! (finally)

God is arguing for the right order NOT "real gifts". EVEN having 3 people in orderly sequence each Sabbath followed by 3 other people "next Sabbath" would be well for it says nothing about "and make sure these 3 are not women!!"

In 1Cor 14 Paul argues "I WISH THAT YOU ALL spoke in tongues" and even adds "I speak in tongues MORE THAN YOU ALL" He also stated that ALL should "DESIRE EARNESTLY SPIRITUAL GIFTS but ESPECIALLY that you may prophesy" 1Cor 14:1.

It is clear that you have a lot of scripture you "need" to ignore.
Acts 21:9 if God is SHOWN to be giving gifts to women that you object to
1Cor 14 if Paul argues for the abundance of spiritual gifts --
The OT if Miriam and Deborah are given gifts you object to --
The Gospels when it is shown that Anna has a gift you object to--

At least your are consistent -- by contrast we have objective unbiased readers and scripture itself.

1Cor 14
1 Pursue love, yet [b]desire earnestly[/b] spiritual gifts, [b]but especially that you may prophesy.[/b]
2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
3 But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation.[/b]
4 [One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.
5 Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.

Paul makes no argument here "Hey this is just me talking not real scripture"

 

BobRyan Quote:
SUCH a rebuke would go TO GOD because Paul ALREADY stated in 1Cor 12 that "IT IS GOD" that gives those gifts AS HE WILLS.

Agreed. But the command to ALL is

1Cor 14
1 Pursue love, yet [b]desire earnestly[/b] spiritual gifts, [b]but especially that you may prophesy.[/b]
2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
3 But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation.[/b]
4 [One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.
5 Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.


And we see NO limit as to "all EXCEPT women" in the distribution chapter (1cor 12) OR in the free exercise chapter (1Cor 14) OR in the historic result of Acts 21:9!!


In 1 Cor 12 Paul CONTRASTS the PRIOR HISTORY of the Christians at Corinth that involve MUTE (non-speaking, non-acting impotent) idols of Pagans with the ACTIVE and POWERFUL Holy Spirit that they CURRENTLY experience!!

1 Corinthians 12
1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware.
2 You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led.
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, ""Jesus is accursed''; and no one can say, ""Jesus is Lord,'' except by the Holy Spirit.

4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.
6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
Hint: There is no “to all except Women” in this chapter!!
In fact in Acts 21:9 we SEE that The Spirit gave the gift of prophecy to Philips 4 daughters.

 

Post 19 is where you respond to these BIBLE examples trying to squirm you way out of what scripture clearly teaches.

For Miriam (Moses' sister) your insightful reponse "Who is Miriam?"

Your reponse to the fact that Bible history SHOWS God to be doing the VERY thing He SAID he was doing in 1Cor 12 -- giving out the gift of prophecy to EACH one without restricting it FROM women -- your insightful response was

Honestly is there ANYONE other than Steaver falling for this stuff??

Then you unwittingly "compound" your problem by ALSO attacking the gift of healing listed in 1Cor 12

The point you have exposed is that Acts DOES show God working JUST as He said He would work in the church in 1Cor 12 and 1Cor14 and that YOU OBJECT to it being allowed beyond the first century church NO MATTER HOW well it fits 1Cor 12 and 1Cor 14!!! By contrast the particular salient point I was making with that Acts 21 reference is that we SEE happening historically in Acts the VERY THING Paul SAID God was doing with spiritual gifts in 1Cor 12!! And in the case of women YOU have been insisting that God COULD not be doing that!!

The point is clear you can not possibly bend and misconstrue the fact that YOU object to the heart of 1Cor 12 spiritual gifts being VALID beyond the first century to a "Bob is dishonest by pointing to the consistent and confirming facts of Acts 21 in relation to 1Cor 12"!!

I simply SHOW Paul's statement in 1Cor 12 has God's giving out gifts to "each one" as He wills and then (even women)- and then I SHOW that historically Philip's daughters are examples of God doing that VERY THING NT POST cross!

Trying to BEND that as you do into "here DHK PROVES Bob is dishonest with the text" is TOTALLY bogus!

I can't believe that ANY unbiased objective reader would fall for it!!


Finally you argue that we should IGNORE sacred history in Acts and ONLY LOOK at SECULAR history FOLLOWING the first century AD to construe DHK-doctrine on spiritual gifts!!!

IS there ANYONE other than Steaver falling for that logic????

In Response to the CHAPTER 14 statement of Paul about the fact that they should DESIRE EARNESTLY spiritua gifts ESPECIALLY that Prophecy - and that HE desired that THEY ALL had more gifts -- your insightful analysis of that statement?

You snippet out one vs from CHATPER 12 that leads to chapter 13 showing Love to be the greatest fruit of the Spirit - of all YET STILL (as we see in 1Co 14) does not NEGATE the instruction to SEEK out and DESIRE earnestly spiritual gifts!! It is as if you NEEDED the letter to END with chapter 12:31 INSTEAD of going on AFTER chapter 13 and INSISTING

AND WHO would fall for your logic here other than Steaver?? Certainly NOT the unbiased objective reader sir!!

But the BIGGER question is -- having failed soooo blatantly to address the problems exposed in your made-up view - HOW THEN do you wave your hands over THIS kind of DHK-post "declare success over yourself" and say that you actually DID something to show me EVER using ANY TEXT AT ALL out of context???

I mean LOOK at what you have said here!!

Surely there has to be a least one moment where you can be reasonable on this topic.

in Christ,

Bob

 

How could the reader possibly miss the fact that Paul admits that each person has a revelation without restricting it to the more DHK form "all but women have a revelation"???

Why do you suppose that simple observation to be beyond the reach of the objective unbiased reader??

in Christ,

Bob

 

Actually I do not claim that the unbiased objective reader would not be a Baptist who rejects Ellen White as a true prophet. I think that still counts in the category of objective and unbiased as I have stated before on this topic.

Well hopefully my "detailed review" of his post 19 shows where I find the "details" to be lacking in his efforts to sustain his claim that I have done anything dishonest in quoting the historic Bible examples of women and prophecy as historic record in scripture and as being consistent with God's Word in 1Cor 12.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1039961&postcount=31

Hint: You will note that I do not go into any argument about "Ellen White" being a prophet.

Basically there are two parts to the discussion.

#1. What was the first century NT practice in context for 1Cor 12 and 1Cor 14 -- and do the examples given SHOW what they were doing??

#2. Is that practice still valid today?

So far we have DHK and I in a difference of opinion on point 1. Clearly we would differ on point 2 as well - but point 1 needs to have some clarity to it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

In vs 26 we have the DHK translation --

(The reader now has an easy CHOICE to make! Rely on DHK as your Bible or use actual Translations!)


1Cor 14 (NASB)
23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all;
25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.
26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

THE NON DHK version then continues --


31 For you can all prophesy one by one[/b], so that all may learn and all may be exhorted;
32 and the [b]spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;
33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.



New International Version (NIV)

23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understandcomes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all,
25and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"
Orderly Worship

26</SPAN>What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

23If, therefore, the whole assembly may come together, to the same place, and all may speak with tongues, and there may come in unlearned or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24and if all may prophecy, and any one may come in, an unbeliever or unlearned, he is convicted by all, he is discerned by all,
25and so the secrets of his heart become manifest, and so having fallen upon [his] face, he will bow before God, declaring that God really is among you.
26What then is it, brethren? whenever ye may come together, each of you hath a psalm, hath a teaching, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation? let all things be for building up;

Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together, and all are speaking in [other] languages, and people who are uninformed or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your minds?
24 But if all are prophesying, and some unbeliever or uninformed person comes in, he is convicted by all and is judged by all.
25 The secrets of his heart will be revealed, and as a result he will fall down on his face and worship God, proclaiming, "God is really among you."
Order in Church Meetings

26 How is it then, brothers? Whenever you come together, each one has a psalm, a teaching, a revelation, [another] language, or an interpretation. All things must be done for edification.


Darby Translation (DARBY)
23 suppose therefore the whole assembly come together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and simple [persons] enter in, or unbelievers, will not they say ye are mad?
24But if all prophesy, and some unbeliever or simple [person] come in, he is convicted of all, he is judged of all;
25the secrets of his heart are manifested; and thus, falling upon [his] face, he will do homage to God, reporting that God is indeed amongst you.
26What is it then, brethren? whenever ye come together, each [of you] has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done to edification.


Whether you take the NASB model that “EACH ONE” has these gifts or the some of the other translations indicating that EACH one has at least one of the gifts to SHARE in public – either way this shows NO restriction against ANYONE having at least one of the gifts to share!!


Of course it is not beyond DHK to declare these Bible translations to all be dishonest and the commentaries to be dishonest so that he can then accuse me of it -- but at SOME POINT the unbiased objective reader has to entertain actual objectivity.

in Christ,

Bob

 

DHK argues from text that speak to "SILENCE" for women -- no speaking.

Does he claim these texts demand total silence from women at least to the point of either not HAVING spritual gifts or not SHARING them in church in such a way that actual TALK is involved?

The interesting thing about THIS specific objection (rejecting the spiritual gifts teaching of 1Cor 12 AND 1Cor 14 and demanding silence from women in church IF it has anything to do with them having a spiritual gift SHARED in church via "talking") is that this attacks many Baptist churchs and other denominations as well. It does not single out SDAs!!

In actual Christian churches - All across the world WOMEN are singing, giving testimonies, praying, and yes calling for the offering!!:applause: :thumbs:

( I too have attended a few Baptist churches gentlemen)

The Objective UNBIASED reader will instantly observe that OF ALL THREE CASES where Paul argues for SILENCE only the last one selects out WOMEN and in ALL three it is a SPECIFIC context in which the person is SILENT! NOT in ALL cases! Paul is not demanding the absolute silence of ANY of these people as to have church turned into a funeral service. Rather for women it had to do with a Q&A dialogue -- stating that this was to be done at HOME and not mid service. But there is NO "GIFT of ASKING QUESTIONS" for either men OR WOMEN!! So this is NOT a case of forbidding women to exercise a spirital gift at church. In fact Paul argues that the main POINT of spiritual gifts IS edification of the church!

It appears that EVEN the most narrow of Baptist groups gets this point partially as Women are authorized to SPEAK authoritatively in children's divisions.

However in 1Cor 14 - the issue is NOT spiritual gifts for women or even their SHARING those gifts in church - the issue is about a Q+A session taking place between some of the women and "others" (others who may or may not be women in this context for Paul is not specific) - Paul simply argues that a disruptive Q&A session NOT be taking place when all are assembled.

 

1 Cor 14
27If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret;
28but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.
29Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment.
30But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent.
31For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted;
32and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;
33for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
34The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.
35If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

Originally Posted by BobRyan
However in 1Cor 14 - the issue is NOT spiritual gifts for women or even their SHARING those gifts in church - the issue is about a Q+A session taking place between some of the women and "others" (others who may or may not be women in this context for Paul is not specific) - Paul simply argues that a disruptive Q&A session NOT be taking place when all are assembled.

Hence "the PROBLEM" Paul is dealing with where HE TELLS us that it has to do with women "ASKING questions" for the purpose of "LEARNING" and the solution being "35If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

That would mean that you need to actually respond to the inconvenient details IN the text sir.

First of all you must admit that yours is largely a "dark ages view of women no matter WHAT scripture says to the contrary" model for Christians no matter WHAT denomination we are talking about.

However that is not my main point here - what I am asking you to do is come up to the tiny-tiny level of objectivity where you ADMIT that those who do NOT share your dark-ages view of scripture and women here include Baptist AS WELL as Adventists and almost every known Christian denomination on the planet!!

Do you have AT LEAST that level of objectivity left sir??

IF NOT then LOOK at the Acts 21:9 example where GOD gives gifts OTHER than "helps" to women!!

IF NOT then LOOK at 1Cor 14 where "EACH ONE" is given spiritual gifts for SHARING in church!

If NOT then LOOK at 1 Cor 12 where "EACH ONE" is given gifts WITHOUT any restriction of the form "but these gifts are not meant for women"!!

WHENEVER the OT example of Miriam or Deborah is brought up - OR The case of Mary, Elizabeth and Anna in the Gospels you come back with the false notion that as NT Christians we NEED NOT accord women the SAME honor and dignity they had BEFORE the Cross! What a sad way to view the Gospel sir! I can't imagine that you would not know THAT MOST Christian denominations flatly reject your false view the Gospel when it comes to women!

HOW then can you possible select THIS example of your own unique and peculiar difference with the REST of Christendom as the THING that separates Adventists from the vast majority of Christians that DO hold to the SAME model for women as SDAs do???

INSTEAD you take this singular view of your little group and charge Adventists with it saying

HOW IN THE WORLD do you find it possible to include this odd idea you have about women in that list???


in Christ,

Bob

 

This is not mockery - this is sincere appreciation for the many Christian groups that DO see the proper role of women in church INCLUDING baptist churches as I note above.

This is also a sincere effort to POINT OUT TO YOU that when YOU SELECT this point as something that should be thought of as a distinctive between SDAS and other christian groups that what you are really doing is highlighting a DISTINCTIVE between YOUR brand of baptists and all the other Christian groups!

The piont is not mockery it is serious "inconvenient facts" that you appear to want to hide in your own efforts to accuse Adventisim without accountability for what you are saying in terms of "the details".

in Christ,

Bob