Say what, Senator Obama????

The syriac version uses gentiles here. Other early versions use creation. Even if creation meaning the earth, trees etc is correct it still doesnt make your point. Any future restoration of creation will be a by product and not the reason for Christs Death. Now how about addressing the rest of my post.

 

Romans 8 is essentially the argument against all of your post. Most versions translate as "the creation", not as "the gentiles".

Paul means what he says and I do not think the "creation = gentiles" argument works. So if indeed creation means creation, then Paul is clearly stating that the present creation will be redeemed. Its really as simple as taking Paul at his word when he says:

the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay ....

It is true that man fell after the instruction to care for the world. Do you really think this means that we are no longer to care for God's creation, something He declared to be "very good" and which Paul says will be liberated from its bondage to decay?

I think your best bet is to make a case that "the creation" means "the gentiles" in Romans 8. Because, if "creation means creation", then the point of the renewal of the earth is pretty solidly established in Romans.

 

Renewal does not equal=Christ died for trees

 

What specific scriptural evidence do you have that the scope of God's redemptive activity excludes creation? I have presented Romans 8. Unless you can make "creation" = "the gentiles", you have a challenge.

 

You presented Romans 8 and twisted to say what it does not. In essence you have presented nothing. Nothing in that passage suggests that is any portion of why Christ died. And for you to include trees in the shedding of the blood of Christ shows your lack of understanding of why we need redemption. The challenge is yours and it is an impossible one.

 

Untrue. I simply echo Paul's words. There is no twisting at all. If indeed "the creation" is the correct rendering, then the verse is clear - the present physical world will be redeemed:

the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and....

While it is true that there has been some legitimate controversy over how to render the greek word that has been rendered (in the NIV) as "creation", the overwhelming majority of translations do indeed render it as "the creation".

In which case the point is established - God will redeem his creation.

To go with the clear meaning of the text as most translations render it is hardly "twisting" - it is taking the text as it reads.

 

The bigger problem is your application of this verse. Nothing here says Christ shed his blood to redeem trees.

 

Do you think the reader will believe you over Paul:

the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and....

The above statement is definitive - God will redeem "the trees" as you put it, unless you can make your "creation" = "the gentiles" argument work. And that is a perfectly legitimate approach.

But we also have this:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross

Again, the plain reading is clear: God will redeem it all - not just the people. If Paul was referring to only human beings, he chose a pretty odd way to say so.....

 

I have heard alot of bad doctrine but this is just dumb.

 

Please engage the text. Is Paul, or is Paul not referring to the totality of creation in the Colossians 1 text.

Would you write the following text if you knew in your mind that the only things to be redeemed are human beings:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross

No competent writer would use the word selection above if they believed that only the people were going to be redeemed. Paul is clearly referring to broad sweep of all creation - all things in heaven and on earth and how all these things are to be reconciled to Him.

 

Notice it says that Christ holds creation together.. not Obama and his ilk... that care more about polar bears, penguins, and the frog that lives down the street...more than the advancement of mankind, or the unborn babies that are aborted.

And this world will not fall apart.. .it is promised in the last verses of Genesis 8 that as long as the earth exists, seasons will be regular..

NO GLOBAL WARMING!!!

It is a promise from God to man.

And no matter how much people cry, "The sky is falling" they are lying...
God is in control.. not the government...

No animal goes extinct unless God decides for it too..
Notice he was in control of the animals during the flood...
He is in control now... and can protect the ones he wants to as he did then!

So believe Gore, Obama, and all the other tree huggers all you want...
I choose to believe that God is God.. .not the lil Messiah.

We need to be watching for the sky to open up to reveal Christ.. .not watching for the sky to fall!

 

I believe that Jesus died to redeem fallen man out of creation. His precious blood was not a ransom for fallen creation, which will be done away with at His good pleasure. It is those who will believe the Gospel out of sinful mankind that Christ gave his life for, Praise God!

 

Good Post!:thumbs:

 

John McCain always was, and still is a NeoConservative.
You will recall in the 2000 election that McCain had the support of people like Bill Kristol, among others.

Check for yourself, you'll see.

Regards, hope all is well,
BiR

 

Well dragonfly, I knew our agreeing on things was not bound to last forever.........:laugh:

 

Let's look at the Colossians text as if Paul had to annotate it to make the point that all creation was not going to be redeemed after all.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation (***I, Paul, really mean that he is firstborn over all humans, not all creation). 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth (***well, really just people, since I am later going to say "all things" will be reconciled to Christ, and I really believe only people will be reconciled) , visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together (***really just people). 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth (***well, really just people - when I wrote all things, I meant "all people" or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross

Do you not see the problem with this?

 

Out of curiousity, exactly which liberal "says" this?

An honest question,
BiR

 

What does this have to do with the op?

 

Nice Dodge!