Saying grace before a meal

Actually, I went back and re-read one of your earlier posts in the thread, and I think we mostly agree here. There is no difference between an audible and inaudible prayer. In the situation you were in where you had a guy asking you why you hadn't prayed out loud, that was totally appropriate to pray by yourself. This is how I pray when it's just me. You certainly don't pray to impress people. It reminds me of a comment a fellow Bible college student made (all those years ago)--he was aghast that someone at an adjoining table apparently in prayer with their head bowed, but their eyes weren't closed!

However, as a family we just have a tradition of praying out loud together and I think it would be wrong to change this when we go to restaurants for at least two reasons--1) it would be rooted in being ashamed of our faith and 2) it would send a message to the kids that we want to keep our faith private and to do so we practice it differently when other people are around.

To answer the more general question, can we completely know our own motives? Here's my rule of thumb--consistency. Ask yourself: Would you give the same amount of money in the offering whether the guy next to you was watching or not? Would you sing as loudly? Would you pray the same way?

 

Here's an additional thought readmore.
Today our pastor spoke about the world's rejection of Christian "values" as simply "incredulous", that is, they are not even worthy of consideration. The example he gave was that of what is called "intelligent design" as an alternative to the random evolutionary process.

In other words creationism is to be rejected as an alternative to origins because it is not even worthy of consideration.

What has that got to do with public prayer?
Well, in a way it is good "pharisaism".

People see your family praying and at least they know that there are still some who don't try to deny general revelation. After all you are thanking God for the provision of food He created.

It's kind of like Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, they stood out when everyone else bowed down. It wasn't their motive to stand out but an unintended consequence of their value system.

HankD

 

Loved this, tinytim! I could just picture it all. :laugh:

 

I'm reminded of the old farmer who went to town and stopped for his meal in a restaurant. After he bowed his head to thank the Lord for the food, some city slickers came over and began to mock him. "Old man, what are you doing? None of us city folk believe in that stuff anymore."

The old farmer quietly said, "Yup, we've got some out on the farm who don't thank the Lord. They just dig right in."

"Yeah, that's my kind of people," said a city slicker. "Who are they?"

The old farmer smiled and said, "Oh, they're our hogs!" :type:

 

:laugh: :laugh:

If man only had hog sense... We wouldn't stand for the devil to be in us...

 

I found a reference in Alfred Edhersheim's classic work the Life and Times of Jesus Christ, where the Jews, even before Christ, said three meal prayers.

 

1 Tim all things are sanctified by the word of God and prayer. And Jesus did it.

 

If we want some fresh figs and we go to a fig tree and it hasn't beared yet, should we curse the tree, because Jesus did it?

 

Only if you want to teach the same lesson by doing so. There was obviously more than meets the eye to that event. It say it wasn't the season for figs. Surely Jesus knew that.

 

I find it passing strange that you are actually arguing against giving thanks before meals. Not only that, you are arguing against following the example of Jesus. Are you really sure you want to go down this path???

 

No, because we cannot do that, but we should follow his example of giving thanks before he ate.

 

Are you arguing against the example of Jesus by not cursing a barren fig tree, or are you arguing in favor of his example by cursing it?

 

You know what, Jesus cursing the fig tree has nothing to do with whether or not we should obey His example in His prayer life! Frankly, I find it really weird that you are trying to make it matter! We should follow the example of Jesus in everything we can. I can't curse a fig tree like Christ did, not being a miracle-worker. But if it is God's will for me to curse a fig tree, I'll pray and He'll answer! I've seen miracles in answer to prayer before.

My turn. Do you believe we should obey the example of Jesus in His prayer life, or not?

 

Like what? I never have.

He prayed all night at least once, and I don't think we should do that. I know of one case in which several ministerial students decided to have an all-night prayer vigil for their college president to 'get saved' on the night before a big exam, which one of them flunked. Was it more important to have that all-night prayer or to study all night, if necessary, to pass? For a few other example, such as praying for a resurrection miracle before he called Lazarus to come forth-- I won't do that either. So if Yes means completely, and No means less than completely, the answer is No.

And is one these 'miracles' you speak of like callng someone to come forth after being in a grave or tomb for 4 (or ore) days?

 

I've seen God save souls in answer to prayer (always a miracle), stop the rain, heal sickness (mine and others), change the hearts of Japanese bureaucrats (always a miracle), etc.

Just last week I visited a Japanese believer in the hospital who had been praying that God would spare him the side effects of chemotherapy. He said that everyone else in the ward had side effects except him!! Praise the Lord!

This is a very poor example to go by. When Christ prayed all night he was not an immature college student neglecting His duties, but He was praying for the Father's guidance just before choosing the twelve disciples. I've tried to pray all night before a big decision (made it to 3:30 :smilewinkgrin: ), and think following the example of Christ just before a big decision is an excellent way to avoid blunders. God led us to Yokohama where we started our first church, though not right at the time of that prayer effort.

I believe that God is entirely capable of answering such a prayer if needed. However, I see 0% possibility that such a miracle is God's will through me. After all, I'm not the Messiah.

I sincerely urge you to make a much deeper study of prayer in the Bible. What you are saying about prayer goes against so many verses: Matt. 21:22, John 14:13, John 15:16 & 16:23, 1 John 3:22 & 5:15, etc.

In fact in the very example you give of the fig tree, Christ makes it plain that He did that miracle to give the disciples an example of what can happen in answer to prayer: Mt 21:21--"Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done."

And before you ask, I've actually read of a mountain being moved in answer to prayer. It was in Africa, and as I recall they needed a hill moved so that they could build another building on the mission property. Someone came and asked if they could use the dirt in that hill, and then came with bulldozers and moved it away! :applause: :thumbs:

 

I think a bigger part to the fig tree is that it has nothing but leaves. When one see's a fruit tree, especially with leaves, you would expect it to have fruit. Not much different to what James said;

Jas 2:14 (KJV) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Then Jesus went on to say this about prayer;

Mt 21:21 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

From what I am reading there is faith lacking in prayer which means you are right, you shall not receive.

 

I question whether you have SEEN souls saved. Exactly what did the soul look like? But if, as I presume, you meant "seen" figuratively, then we have all seen that who have been involved in churches for years... or at least we think so. In many cases, if we check back in a year, or 2, or 10, such a person may claim to no longer believe; in which case the 'miracle' we thought we saw was nothing but trying to 'fit in' or please one's spouse of 'significant other,' and/or to have a position to have some authority for the sake of ego.... or other reasons.

It seems like it's in the hundreds that I have seen rain stop, often quite suddenly. If there were a need for the rain to stop, was there a need for the rain in the first place. If there was a need for to be no rain, that already reduces it to a half-miracle if that much. And how does this not contradict the words of Jesus, "...he sends the rain on the just and the unjust"-- if he plays favorites according to prayer, how is this still so/

To that, I will ask you what I customarily ask those who spout the praises of the televangelists and other pentecostals...have you seen a person with a missing arm or leg grow a new one? Or are the "healings" you write of such afflictions as headache, stomache, backache...all of which come and go for a number of physical and physogenic reasons? Or, if some are in-between these examples, such as cancer, goiters, arthritis, et al, you are aware (are you not?) there are many cases of remissions and healings, per se, which are difficult or impossible to explain, other than a positive attitude and positive support are salutary?

Man! There are way too many reasons bureaucrats may have 'changes in hearts.' When Nixon suddenly changed from total non-recognition of Communist China to full diplomatic relations and admission to the U.N. Security Council, how much of a real "change of heart" was that? How much succumbing to power, threats, or reality was it? And Herod's 'change of heart' about anxiety for the progeny of his kingdom to wishing to go worship the one 'born King of the Jews'? Yeah, yeah... changes of heart. And even if real, how is it a "miracle?"

Exactly what type of cancer, and exactly what side effects? More nausea, headaches, backaches, et al, that this positive attitude and support can greatly help? Or loss of hair, anemia, and such, in which these effects vary greatly?

 

Man alive, you are sure a doubter! You evidently don't even believe that after we've prayed for years for someone to be saved and they are saved, that is an answer to prayer. I've seen it happen over and over.

Yet you mock the idea of souls saved in answer to prayer and say, "Exactly what did the soul look like?" I perceive by your mocking that you just want to argue, not to really discuss prayer. I thought I could be a blessing to a "Doubting Thomas," but you are determined to stay a doubter. So be it. But anyone who mocks at answered prayer must answer to the God who answers.

It was at a Christian youth camp, and it was raining heavily. At lunch the director told me to pray for the rain to stop so that we could have our afternoon activities. I prayed, then after lunch was in the tabernacle with the teens, they were doubting the Lord. "Brother Himes, God hasn't stopped the rain yet, has He?" I said, "Just wait. God will do it." Then as we watched, a very strong wind came and blew away the rain clouds. It was beautiful weather all afternoon.

Everyone who saw it praised the Lord for the miracle He had done. I'm glad you weren't there. You'd have said, "Aw, it was just a coincidence. God doesn't do miracles anymore."

I've also seen God stop the rain here in Japan immediately in answer to prayer so that we could do evangelism in clear weather. I've not recorded the times I've seen this, but it has been a few. But you will mock this as a coincidence, no doubt.

See below, the man I saw last week. I see no point in going further here since you will simply look for a human reason to doubt any miracles I mention. And I emphasize once again, I am not a Charismatic. I believe that Charismatic "healing crusades" and "healers" are fake.

If you are really interested in losing your "doubting Thomas" attitude and lack of faith, read Prayer: Asking and Receiving by John R. Rice (one who strongly opposed the Charismatic movement). Many miracles of immediate healing are mentioned in the book in Ch. 7-8: tonsilitis (p. 99), a mysterious illness in 1936 (pp. 115-117), a woman bitten by a poisonous spider (p. 122), a daughter of the author who had diptheria (p. 123; it was fatal in those days), and others.

Here may be why you don't see healing in answer to prayer: "And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much" (James 5:16-17).

Do you believe the Word of God? Do you believe James 5?

A miracle is when God reaches down in grace into nature and accomplishes something that man cannot do. I can't reach into a man's mind and change his thinking, so to me it is a miracle when God does it immediatlely after prayer, as opposed to such a person simply changing their mind.

I suppose you can read someone's mind and then beam your thoughts at someone and change their mind, though, right? No, only God can do that.

Mr. Usuki is being worked on with a new method of treating Hepititis C with cancer drugs. Go ahead. Doubt the miracle. I don't.

 

Because of answered prayers, you are saved. Do you believe that?

 

Right on both counts. I am alive and I am a doubter of fantastic tales of "miracles."

Evidently.

You mean these people gain salvation, then lose it, then regain it, then.....?

Unquestionably it was a coincidence (if this happend at all)-- 2 things happening simultaneously.

Well, not much.

Based on what?

Yep. Do you?... "Do not complain, brothers, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged..." (v.9).

It is? Okay, let God-- with absolutely no help from man-- change these unbelievers into believers... that would make the presumed miracle more beleivable as such. And let God heal a man like the one you mentioned, so that he wouldn't be saying he has no side effects like others on his ward-- let there be no ward, no hospital, no physicians or surgeons... you got any examples like that?

God needs cancer drugs to do his miracles? Frankly I do doubt that.