SBC resolution could shrink church membership rolls further

I take a different approach. I believe people listen to me because I have reasons for my faith and I care about today's youth. I tell them that they are the leaders of tomorrow. I want them to go down the right path. I find there are some who do not listen but I feel that most do because I am passionate about the message I have to share. When we have something to share and are passionate about it, people will listen. If we take the approach that nobody will listen then most likely nobody will. If we believe our message is urgent and are passionate about it then people will listen. After all who wants to listen to someone who is not sure they have anything to give and a message they feel nobody should hear.

I taught high school students in the past and now university students. You would be amazed at how many students who sit in my office and pour out their heart and life to me. I have met very few who do not want straight talk and reasons for my faith. I get right down to where the rubber meets the road. I tell them the hard things and where poor decisions lead. The problem I found is that so many adults are afraid of straight talk but their kids are not.

Josh McDowell wrote a book called Right From Wrong. In that book he talks about how many teens are involved in immoral behavior within the youth groups in churches. Too many parents do not have reasons for their own faith and are unable to lead their children. The greatest influencer in a child's life is the parent. Godly parents tend to reproduce godly children. If we waffle around on our faith then just imagine the mixed messages our children get.

Sometime go to http://www.discipleshiplibrary.com/josh_mcdowell_classics.php
and listen to the talks Josh McDowell gives on Right From Wrong parts 1 & 2.

We have incredible opportunities to guide young people down the right path. When people meet us they should know within a very short amount of time where we stand and where we are headed.

A freimd of mine works in a manufacuring facilty and several times a week he is asked by employees for advice. A lot of it has to do with relationships. If people know we will give them straight talk and they can trust us they will listen.

 

Actually the U.S. consistently produces more patents per capita then any other country in the world.

I agree. I went back into teaching for the very reason of reaching students. I love it. I feel 20 years younger and am around Christian students who are eager to grow and non-Christian students who need to know God. Some of the Christian students are very clear about who their God is and who they follow. I provide for a lot of discussion in class and it allows for student praticipation. I always have a unit on ethics.

Some of the best discussions I have had and listened to have been in the public school. Some of those students would challenge the socks off of any church member. Some of the finest growing Christians are in the public schools.

When I started as a student at SWBTS in an evangelism class I was shocked to hear a lady ask a question and to tell us that she had never shared her faith or ever given her testimony. Her dad was a deacon in her church too. By that time she had graduated from a Baptist college and was studying to do ministry in a local church. By the time I was a Christian one week I was asked to give my testimony. I was involved in the Navigators in a public university.

Ministry is always where people are. Ministry among non-Christians is done where they live and work.If we do not know how to live for Christ in the world then we will never reach people.

Years ago I dated a young lady who changed the course of the church she attended forever even to this day. For years there had been just a small youth group. That young lady when she was in gigh school had started a small Bible study with a small group of friends. That small group exploded into many other small groups. By the end of the year there was someting like 150 in the high school youth group. Tha eventually spilled over into the college group. A few years later the college and high school groups were about 400 students which was around 1/2 of the church. What God can do with one young person sold out for Jesus Christ is amazing.

When I came to the university I was not a Christian and had ambitions of being a physicist and possibly a teacher. After 3 months a knock came on my door by a student who was with another student I knew from class. That night I came to know Christ and heard the answers to my questions for the first time. For the next two years that student became my friend and followed me up teaching me to pray, spend time with God, share my faith, and how to live the Christian life. Two years later I began to pray that God would give me a man to follow up on. I remember exactly where I was when I prayed that for the first time. He answered that prayer and by the end of the following school year there was about 65 men on my team. As we prayed we began to see God work. It was as though people were coming out of the woodwork. Some of those began to help me with a children's ministry at the church. The same thing happened at the church. We saw parents come to know Christ because their children asked them to help with their scripture memory. Some churches in town came to see what we were doing. Often the comments was how they were surprised that we did not have crafts and games. I told them we did not have time for those things because we wanted to teach them the Bible and how to pray for their friends and make disciples. We saw kids to begin to share their faith and follow up on their friends. We had a time of prayer where the kids prayed for prayer requests. Each week the workers got together to pray for one hour for each child by name. Each week we visited one family. We kept track of who we prayed for. Each week we would get a report. Those kids were 4th - 6th graders. Eventually some of those kids asked to stay in the class because they wanted to learn more. I did not know what to do about that so I asked the pastor and we used the older children to do follow up. Over 30 years later many of those same kids are now doing discipleship among adults in that same church.

God begins with a willing heart not just a beating heart.

 

I would disagree. You should have written, "I believe no discipleship in our churches is a problem as the bible teaches it, yet it seems to be for the most part ignored."

 

Of course church discipline is biblical. It is for the purpose of restoration of the person who is in sin.

Very few churches actually practice personal discipleship.

I think you could easily answer your own question by giving us a figure of the number of people in your church who meet each week for the purpose of personal discipleship. How many in your church are personally discipling someone or are being discipled? I am not talking about pew sitters on Sunday but people who are actually reaching others.

 

Years ago when I was a student studying to go into management the teacher told us to not look at what the company tell us but rather how many workers are in the facility. Companies will only hire the number of workers they need. A church should not be judged by how many people are in the pew but rather how many are reproducing themselves in the lives of others. The harvest is plentiful but the laborers are few. It is the laborers which should measure a church's impact. For over 30 years I have seen the same things repeated. I have met many who have been in churches and came to know Christ through a church but had seldom shared their faith and made any disciples. One of those I met in 1975 had been a Christian for three years and when I first met him he was playing Pink Floyd in his dorm. By the end of that year he met a student and began discipling him. Today he is with the Navigators heading up one of the ministries on a campus. In 1996 I met a young man on the verge of a divorce. He decided to join a Bible study I invited him to. Within a few months his entire family became Christians. At work he began sharing his faith and later started discipling a man. Today he is working in a church on staff leading the music and teaching them to make disciples. He was one of the instrumentalists for the singing group in one of the Super Bowls shortly before I met him. God does not give us people to treat like cattle but as those he loves and cares for. He has given us the task of making disciples in such a way that they reproduce themselves in the lives of others. He has not called us to just teach classes but to make disciples.

Most churches I know have classes they call discipleship but they are not really personal discipleship. It is like calling a Bible study or Sunday School, discipleship. Jesus made disciples. Look at the way he did it. He spent time with his disciples to teach them to follow him so that when he left they could carry out the task he had given them. The SBC will tell you that the average SBC church member never leads one person to Christ in an entire lifetime. Personal discipleship would stop that by training the people to walk with God and give them a great sense of care and accountability. The Bible says in James 1:22, "But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves." People can be in a Sunday School and be listeners only. It is easy because seldom does anyone take a personal interest in them to help them grow in such a way that they become reproducers.

Churches are not dying because of church discipline but because of a lack of serious personal discipleship. Too many pastors and leaders are blaming the problem on the congregation when they have not taken a close look at themselves first. Too many think the answer is in programs and great preaching. Programs and preaching may get people in the door but it will not make disciples who are able to reproduce themselves.

Sitting in a class is about the same as a child going to school. It may teach him some things but does little to prepare the student for life. People can sit in classes for years and years and yet never share their faith. When I started seminary at SWBTS I took an evangelism class. There was a lady in the class who asked about the need for giving her testimony. I was shocked to find out that her dad was a deacon. She had graduated from a SBC backed college, and she had never shared her faith or even given her testimony. She had grown up in a Christian home, went to a SBC church, went to a Baptist college, and had never shared her faith. I am certain she had attended Sunday School many times but was unable to disciple anyone simply because of no leadership in her life.

If you want to read something that will grab your attention take a look at http://www.bibleteacher.org/Dm118_8.htm

 

Who is leading the way in this matter?

Are you assured that all SBC leaders are currently making disciples? That includes seminary presidents, SBC presidents, agency presidents, state leaders, and pastors.

 

If there is no proof of the person's leadership in the disciples they have made then why call them a leader.

Jesus gave the ministry and methology. Seems to me that he instilled in them the ministry of making disciples. He did not just talk about it but lived it out and we see the results today.

When I was involved in the Navigators I knew the leaders were making disciples. It was obvious. We saw the fruit of their discipleship.

I know the pastors and elders of the church I attend are making disciples. I have had personal discussions with them and can see the fruit of their ministry.

If I was trusting the leaders of a convention then I would want to be assured they are making disciples. Why have leaders who are nothing more than noise makers. If the church does not take care of its business the world will see through the nonsense.

Years ago I was in a church where making disciples was the first requirement for being a leader outside of being a believer. Those nominated in secret by someone in the congregation were notified and then asked if they wanted to serve. If they agreed to serve then it was made public and announced from the pulpit. The pastor would let about two weeks go by to see if there were any objections. Later there was an open meeting for the people in the church to ask questions. By the time the person was selected the congregation was assured of many things. That church had absolutely first class leaders and many ministries blessed by God. Every prospective leader should be examined so that the he is not put in a position to bring judgment on the church or himself.

 

You are absolutely right that the church is not a company. Companies are there for a profit and to make money. Churches should be serving an eternal purpose. Therefore we should take the responsibility of making disciples extremely seriously. It is a command Jesus gave.


You are right in that you cannot make people come. When Jesus called his disciples he did not invite them to a program, a church, or anything else. He called them to come follow him. He did not plead with them and give them prizes as an enticement.


The way you get people involved is to begin to pray and ask God for them. You ask God to give you people who will be faithful. I am not interested in pushing and pulling and giving out prizes to people. I never have and never will. One does not need to give out prizes when I he is on fire for Christ. A man walking with God is contagious. Over the years I have had many men ask me to help them grow.

You can judge numbers. There is a book in the Bible called numbers. If numbers were not important, then the numbers in the Bible would not be important to God. You can judge the fruit of your ministry by the disciples you make. I have never known or heard of anyone in Christian history in the Bible who has not made any disciples in their lifetime who knew how and asked God for people to disciple.

You can have sign up sheets but you also need to make it known what you expect. If you expect nothing you get nothing. Jesus expects our life. Why should we give him less?



Most of the time in a new situation I start with prayer and let God guide me to a few people. I teach them to make disciples by modeling it with them and the things I do with them. I teach them to do ministry by taking them with me to a lot of places I go and situations I encounter. I seldom do ministry by myself. When I train people I take them with me. The people see how it’s done by watching me. A few years ago a young man I was meeting with had a son whose friend came over and I witnessed to him. It was quite natural because the boy asked who I was. The young man heard our conversation and said to me later that he needed to start doing that. So we talked about it and we began to pray that God would give him boldness. God gave him many opportunities and boldness. Today he leads the music and teaches people in the church to make disciples. Making disciples is more about relationships than a program. Discipleship is about them being taught to do ministry and walk with God. It is not about me at all.


A few years ago in the discipleship group I was leading was a man who died in church. A few weeks before he died he had made some serious commitments to God. I found out that he had not seen one of his children for years. She had gone through a rebellious time in her life and had avoided the family. She came to the service and realized that she had become a Christian and her dad had too. It was great to see that realization on her face. His wife was left with almost nothing. She could hardly afford to live. In that same group was a lady who often complained about her husband. One night she complained about her husband and the lady whose husband died told the other lady, “It sure must be nice to have a husband.” No amount of preaching and teaching could have ever done as much good as the lady who had just lost her husband. We helped the lady to get her house cleaned and the yard taken care of. We enlisted the help of the youth. That lady was taken care of by a family in the church. There are many great things that come out of a discipleship in terms of practical ministry. When you disciple people you see marriages strengthened and healed and a joy they have never had. A few years later one of the men I knew had lost his wife and he married the lady who had lost her husband. It is great to see people who are growing Christians get married. Discipleship groups can be a great way for people to grow and connect with other growing like minded Christians. Discipleships groups provide opportunities for people to grow and be taught how to make disciples wherever they may live.

John said that he had no greater joy than to know that his children walk in the truth. He knew he was making disciples. When people get excited, share their faith, and make disciples their excitement cannot be contained. It is so obvious that you cannot miss it.

Certainly it cannot be an official program. Jesus issued the command in Mt. 28:19, 20. I saw a slow dying church in a small building that reached to over 4,000 in a town of the same size it had always been. Several years ago that church hired a young pastor who was on fire for Christ but was not a very eloquent preacher. He had “it” though. He knew how to make disciples. He came with the stipulation that they would let him make changes. He started with five key men and trained them to do ministry. That church was heavily involved in making disciples. A man I met many years later who pastored a church in Europe told me that he knew the church well because he had hired a staff person who was trained at that church.

In response to a statement you made I wrote that the answer is not church discipline but rather discipleship. How can you blame weakness in the members if they have never been taught to walk with God and make disciples? I blame that on the leadership's failure to make disciples. God calls leaders to lead by making disciples not just preaching and telling people what ought to be done. Most people know what they ought to do but do not so it because they do not care or do not know how. Most doctors did not wake up someday and say to themselves they ought to be a doctor and started practicing. They received training and help along the way.

Jesus knew he was making disciples and so does anyone who makes disciples. John did because he said that he had no greater joy than making disciples.
When I see people that I have been meeting with start to pray for people by name and have a desire to share their faith, I know they are growing. When they begin to find someone who wants to grow then it gets exciting. There is no greater joy than making disciples.


Sometime when you get a chance read the articles at http://www.bibleteacher.org/Dm118_8.htm