SBC Seminaries' First Ladies' Stern Warning About MVs

and by thew way my description of inerrancy should have been more clear. If the Bible says it happened then it happened just the way the author intended it to be understood. Inerrancy covers doctrine, science, history, or any other narrative facts it presents. Coppiest errors do not negate inerrancy.

 

Hmm... Who came to this thread, made a charge regarding my motives (of which, you have no real way to know), while contributing nothing to the discussion of the actual topic of the thread.

I documented the allegation you made against me using other current posts on BaptistBoard, yet you continue to ignore what is plainly there for all to see.

Now you have the audacity to call me a liar and demand repentance.

If this is the way you normally operate, I'm grieved to know you are a pastor and are supposed to be a model of how to follow Christ.

Repentance is indeed in order.

And please... let this go. You are WAY off topic on this thread.

 

You're off topic here, but I do agree.

The question is, how did the author intend it to be understood. That's a matter for interpretation, but folks tend to allege that it is somehow an issue of inerrancy.

Sure. But that's a discussion for another thread. Please take it there.

 

I don't know your motives for your attack on the character of the Patterson's. You call it inconstancy which is another way of saying a backhanded attack on their character. Both are the same thing. Then you lied about me following you around the board. calling you out on your poor behavior as someone else int this thread has done is not following you around the board. You appear to be very bitter at the Patterson's for some reason. This is true of the theological left so it is no surprise.

I haven't followed you around the board. You have seen fit to gossip about the Patterson's in two threads. Grow up.

 

The amount of heat yet lack of light has become staggering.

Just following the pattern set by Dot and Paige I guess. Is this stuff covered in the commentary?

 

Actually, I said "inconsistency."

Oh I agree, it is a character issue. However, I have only specified Paige Patterson. Dr. Dorothy Patterson is not guilty of that conduct as far as I know. So please get it straight.

The real question though, is it true. You won't deal with the issue. Instead you just attack me with the ad hominem allegations.

I am not a fan of Paige Patterson, although I do give him appropriate credit for the good that he does. (Here is just one example.) I also point out the stuff that's not so good.

Ah yes, an attempt to tie me to the "theological left." Nonsense.

Yet, you suddenly popped into this thread, didn't make a contribution or reference to the to the topic at hand, and started making false allegations.

As for the "gossip," you were the one who forced my hand to defend myself.

Please stop your attacks.

 

Hey BB,

My "little confession" about sneaking around reading my wife's bible was merely an attempt at humor. Obviously it didn't get through. Perhaps you should read others' comments more like you read the Bible? Try to lighten up a bit.

Sincerely,

Jonathan C. Borland

 

That's good to know. I suspected it might be humor, but there are people around here who would probably have issues with it because "a woman would be teaching a man theology."

It did to some degree. What tipped me the other direction is that a certain person you were defending earlier dismissed a female seminary professor at Southwestern Seminary because she was a woman and he had issues with it because a woman shouldn't be teaching men theology. I don't know if the author of the study Bible you referenced (or her husband) would approve of your actions. (Seriously.)

Not sure what that means. :laugh:

Usually I am. Today has not been a good day.

I appreciate your tone and consideration. :wavey:

 

If they are going to follow the Proverbs 31 model then the women need to buy a field and plant it and be in the business world.

 

Some of us have done just that.

 

Good for you!! :wavey:

 

Not among those who have studied the issue apart from politics. I have seen men in front of me who walk away when shown the truth because it meant they would have to deal with it. That means that they could no longer live in ignorance and would have had to take a stance based on truth and were afraid of the consequences.

 

Great! I grew up in a home of a long lineage of ladies who were the wives of farmers who also drove tractors and milked cows. I would like to see the advocates of stay at home moms in the religious groups work as the ladies in my life have and some continue to. I would like to see them buy a field and plant it and do much more than be a suzy homemaker. In my life the men would have seen that as laziness to only do that much.

 

Canonically, the "Proverbs 31 Woman" serves merely to give introduction to the virtuous woman Ruth, which book follows Proverbs in the Hebrew ordering of books. I have an interpretational question: As the passage in Proverbs 31 is poetic, do you really think it's to be taken literally or simply as an ode of praise, so to speak, in honor of that woman who "fears the Lord" and adjusts her actions accordingly?

Sincerely,

Jonathan C. Borland

 

It certainly can be applied in terms of one who helps her husband and family in a variety of ways. She is also a woman who is able to provide nice things that enhance her home and help to provide for others. If observed she would serve as an example of one who works hard and is one who is praised for her qualities.

She gives to her home and helps her husband instead of relying on him completely for everything.

 

I see no reason not to take it literally, that is, as a model of the ideal woman.

A few months ago, I was helping lead a group of high school teens through the Proverbs over the course of 12 weeks and we finished with Proverbs 31. Proverbs has quite a few warnings to young men about all of the ways they can get destroyed by the wrong kind of woman, and we spent significant time on those timeless passages, so I was afraid they were going to get the idea that Proverbs was anti-woman. But then we came to Proverbs 31 and the teen boys got so excited over the attributes of the virtuous wife. It was really a beautiful moment. Each one of them said, in their own words, that they hoped to marry someone like that.

Personally, I've gotten in trouble with this passage. It eventually led to my getting asked to leave a church. One Sunday evening, I was in a men's Church Training class that was being taught by the Minister of Education. He was giving the line about how the man had to be in charge of the home and the most significant way for a man to be the leader of the house was to handle all of the finances and to only give his wife allowances for the things she needed to do. He asserted that women can't handle business decisions because of their need for security and a man would doom his marriage to failure if he let his wife balance the checkbook because the devil would get the idea that she doesn't need a man.

I strongly disagreed with many of his points, but I was planning to talk to him abut it privately afterward. However, a new Christian in the room was having a real struggle with what was being said and spoke up. He said his wife was a whiz with finances and had saved them financially because he was good at making money, but he was "terrible" with keeping track of things. She also was able to take control of their finances with him and get them out of some very serious debt that he had foolishly incurred a few years before when we wasn't married. He said that because of her assistance and abilities, they had tens of thousands of dollars in savings and had made some investments that were already paying off that would put them in good shape for retirement. He couldn't figure out why God would not want him to allow his wife to use her gifts to strengthen his marriage.

The Minister of Education responded by telling him that the "biblical example" was that the woman should be submissive to her husband in all things, and one of the main ways that works is that the woman should not know about the finances in the home. She should be dependant upon her husband for everything.

The man looked distraught and I finally decided to speak up. I said, I'd like to read something. I read Proverbs 31 aloud - verbally emphasizing the verse about the wife's home-based business, her buying a piece of property, and contributing to the financial prosperity of the home. I asked the man, "Does that sound like your wife?" He said, "Absolutely." I said, "Then you are blessed. The Bible affirms both you and your wife. Your wife doesn't have to be weak for you to lead your home."

The Minster of Education was incensed, but couldn't really respond directly since I had simply read scripture and was taking it literally. However, I was a marked man after that. The church staff considered me a troublemaker.

 

that view of "Biblical submission" that you referenced was anything but!

The wife was given to him byt he Lord as a "help mate", and her area of strenght was in his of weakness, financial wisdom!

 

Thanks, GB and BB,

Good points all. I certainly prayed and hoped for this kind of woman when I was a teenage guy, and God was gracious enough to grant me my desire. Is interesting, though, how the book begins with wisdom and the fear of the Lord and then ends with a wise WOMAN and her fear of the Lord. How the Bible raises the view of women, especially given their standing in the day in which this passage was written! Virtuous women who fear the Lord should be praised indeed!

Sincerely,

Jonathan C. Borland

 

I completely agree. It is not representative of the mainstream complementarian viewpoint, but of an extreme version.

Yes, absolutely. He was blessed to have her and she was blessed to have him. He was good at making money and she was good at managing it and making them wealthy from his seed money.

He left that church shortly afterward but I'm glad I was able to show him the difference between what the Bible actually said and what the leaders of the church were teaching. I hope and pray he found a more supportive congregation that continued his discipleship.