Scholar Against Women Pastors

I would agree that something must be done with the servant of the church named Phebe. The Bible says she was a servant and does not call her a pastor or bishop. If we must go with what some understand the Greek to English to be "Deaconness", then we must do so in a way that reconciles with the rest of the Bible for the Bible does not contradict itself. I believe the classic commentators Jamieson, Fausett and Brown have the most probably correct understanding of the meaning of this passage...

"That in the earliest churches there were deaconesses, to attend to the wants of the female members, there is no good reason to doubt. So early at least as the reign of Trajan, we learn from PLINY'S celebrated letter to that emperor--A.D. 110, or 111--that they existed in the Eastern churches. Indeed, from the relation in which the sexes then stood to each other, something of this sort would seem to have been a necessity. Modern attempts, however, to revive this office have seldom found favor; either from the altered state of society, or the abuse of the office, or both." (Source: JF&B)​

As to the blessed female leaders you cited...I am not familiar with Beth Moore but as to Ann Graham Lotz...Whether or not folks believe that God is blessing Mrs. Lotz would be divided along at least two lines. If one believes that the Catholic Church is the mother of harlots and the whore of Revelation and they believe ecumenicism is sending a multitude to Hell, then they're probably not going to think God is blessing the ministry of Mrs. Lotz nor her daddy's ministry. If one thinks that Rome is the way to go and ecumenicism is cool, then they will likely believe that Mrs. Lotz ministry is being blessed by God.

"And this Pope is someone who believed in heaven, and he believed that when he died he was going there. The wonderful thing, in Rome I've heard people say the Holy Father is in heaven and everybody is so confident that the Pope is in heaven. And I think its because he was such a good man." - Ann Graham Lotz​

The Holy Father is in heaven, the question is whether or not the Holy Father Mrs. Lotz' spoke of, is the same as the Holy Father the Bible speaks of.

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." - John 17:11
​

Was Jesus speaking to the Pope in the above passage or was he speaking to God the Father or should we believe the Pope is God the Father? Whatever way one answers will determine whether or not Mrs. Lotz is blessed or cursed.

 

The term for servant describing Phoebe is "diakonos". Some translations call that servant, but it is what it is. I didnt write it lol.

Given the likely practice of the person delivering the letter reading the letter to the church, its hard to say that she wasnt in a position of leadership. Again, you are projecting your own interpretation onto a passage without regarding its original setting.

only in that passage, which might mean there was an issue with that in that particular church

If prophesying has no aura of authority, then why is it listed among the other gifts related to leading the church in Eph 4 and 1 Cor 14?

 

A correct understanding of scripture cannot allow one to truly believe that the Catholic church is that whore of Babylon. I know its preached, but its absurd.

Beth Moore is a very well known speaker and leads conferences all over the country. They are for women, but some men go (go figure that lol). God is blessing her ministry tremendously and is using her in mighty ways. And there are others too, but I dont want to derail the thread.

 

If your reference to the "beating of this girl" is to Tragic_Pizza, please note that Tragic is male.

I didn't note any posts that have been uncivilized (save for Tragic calling James, "Jimmy" and a liar and his use of an inappropriate term for a certain body part). However, considering that Tragic essentially accused people who are opposed to female pastors as being accomplices to murder...I think we've done a pretty good job in being civil.

 

Tater,

bmerr here. In Rom 16:1-2, Phebe is called a "servant" and a "succourer". The word translated "servant" can indeed mean "preacher or teacher", though it does not require one of these meanings. It could also mean "attendant, or waiter".

The word translated "succourer" simply means "patroness, that is, assistant". Phebe could have assisted Paul and others in many ways apart from teaching or preaching.

Isn't that pretty much what is explicitly stated in 1 Tim 2:12?

Popularity has never been an indication of Divine Approval.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

Mr. pizza,

bmerr here. OOPS! My bad. No offense intended. You weren't arguing "like a girl" or anything. How about those Bears, huh?

And please read "buddy" for "sweetie". Boy do I feel stupid. Profile check, anyone?

In Christ,

bmerr

 

bmerr,
Tater here lol. You are taking a translated word (servant, succourer) and definig that instead of the original term diakonos. Check it out. Its there for both males and for her. Sorry, I didnt write it lol, but its there. I just saw it with my own eyes.

 

Tater,

bmerr here. I got my info from Strong's. Here's the whole listing for each:

"Servant"

G1249
διάκονος
diakonos
dee-ak'-on-os
Probably from διάκω diakō (obsolete, to run on errands; compare G1377); an attendant, that is, (generally) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specifically a Christian teacher and pastor (technically a deacon or deaconess): - deacon, minister, servant.


"Succourer"

G4368
προστάτις
prostatis
pros-tat'-is
Feminine of a derivative of G4291; a patroness, that is, assistant: - succourer.


Here's what Thayer's had for each.

"Servant"

G1249
διάκονος
diakonos
Thayer Definition:
1) one who executes the commands of another, especially of a master, a servant, attendant, minister
1a) the servant of a king
1b) a deacon, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money collected for their use
1c) a waiter, one who serves food and drink
Part of Speech: noun masculine or feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: probably from an obsolete diako (to run on errands, compare G1377)
Citing in TDNT: 2:88, 152

"Succourer"

G4368
προστάτις
prostatis
Thayer Definition:
1) a woman set over others
2) a female guardian, protectress, patroness, caring for the affairs of others and aiding them with her resources
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a derivative of G4291

Again, the only reference to teaching/preaching is in Strong's for "servant", and even there it is not required.

Do you think pizza will still talk to me? Mr. pizza, that is...

In Christ,

bmerr

 

OK! I found out pizza is a dude, as well, didn't know that. It changes somethings but men can be feminists, can't they?

I don't know, still, why you argue your point in light of the Bibles' clear definition of womens and mens roles, are you in denial?

In the Bible it says this............

1 Corinthians 11:3 (King James Version)
3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Now if that is not clear and defining of womens role you let me know! And, it doesn't mean you can do whatever, men, as always everything should be done with love and compassion as Christ would do!

 

Oh, I love the fact that the man is the head of the woman, and I have no problem submitting to Godly leadership. Actually, I long for it. But that still doesnt mean we can take what the Bible says and interpret it in light of our 2007 Western only mindset. It had to mean something to the original readers and it has to mean something today. Do you not agree that possibly the church at Ephesus had a specific issue with women and thats why it was hammered to those believers? He did that in the letters to the Corinthians to help them deal with their issues and others places as well. Why pick this one out and make it the law for all women today?

I am just saying that I think at times, we (all) lay upon the text our own preconcieved ideas of what is right and wrong, without really being open to what is all there

BTW...I always thought pizza wasa guy :saint:

 

I think Tater makes some really good points here.

We all have to be careful of laying on the text what we have been told is right, instead of truly seeking to lay all of that aside and seek out what the Word is really teaching.

Men and women both have a major place in ministry for the Lord. We should rejoice in this fact and equip and encourage each other as we serve the Lord for His glory.

 

Yes, to clarify, I am a male, and I apologize for my language of attack and for using what turned out to be a naughty word in one of my posts. Had I known the word would be offensive, I wouldn;t have used it; that it is says something about where our discussion is coming from, in any case. I was going to make some gentle jokes at bmerr about his stance on gays in the church, given his terms of endearment , but accidents happen and my user name isn;t exactly solidly gender specific.

I do not think anyone has sufficiently explained why Paul would have used "diakonos," the masculine gender for a word translated elsewhere as "minister," for Phoebe if she were notin a position of leadership in the church. Further, I see it as a grave mistake to insist that Scripture exists out of a cultural and historic context. The culture of the time that Paul wrote was decidedly patriarchal; further, women who led men, were outspoken in worship, and generally loud and/or finely adorned were associated with temple worship and prostitution.

The above should address the several requests for me to address Paul's Scriptural prohibitions.

I take the murder of my friend at the hands of a clearly insane Fundamentalist very seriously, as I understand you all do. I am concerned, thugh, that the violence Nancy suffered is an outward demonstration of an inward violence done women (among other individuals) by many churches to this day.

If God is no respecter of persons, why, then, are we? If, in Christ, there is niether male or female, slave nor free, etc., why do we draw these distinctions in the church? We do not labor in Corinth or Antioch, but we do exist in an increasingly pagan and unbelieving culture. We have no hope of ever impacting men and women with the love and truth of Jesus Christ if we continue to hold our own underfoot and fight with one another over what is, in the light of the Resurrection, minutae.

Finally, on the issue of original languages: translators are human beings, and exist at a place and time which must directly affect theor work. The translators of the original English Bible used words, phrases, and spellings quite clear to them, but difficult for us today. One example (and I am not using this to derail the thread or make any statement of support prohibited by the TOS) is that the word "homosexual" is not found in any translation before the late 19th century, because the word was unknown until then.

Thus, rather than relying on the fluidity of our own ever-developing language and cultural context, it is imerative that we examine the original tongues, which are not fluid, and which are a product of specific cultures and contexts.

Thank you all for being much kinder debaters than I; I confess Nancy's death has affected me far more than I might have thought.

 

Tragic,

While I appreciate your overall contrite tone, you continue to connect fundamentalist Christianity as being a contributor to Copin's death. Criminal behavior is not a tenant of Christian fundamentalism, thus the prior behavior of Cobler is not representative of fundamentalism. Murdering practitioners of bad doctrine is also not a tenant of Christian fundamentalism, thus the more recent behavior of Cobler is not representative of Christian fundamentalism. There is no record of Cobler being a member of a fundamentalist church but there is a record of him attending a drug rehab at a Christian church as well as "recently attending services" (a milk Christian at best, though highly unlikely). Having a Christian church minister to a drug addict does not make the drug addict a fundamentalist and thus the drug rehab stint at a Christian church is not indicative of Mr. Cobler being a Christian fundamentalist. Mr. Cobler, allegedly, did receive information suggesting that some Christians still hold to the Biblical teaching that the office of a pastor is to be held by a man but there is nothing that suggests the same church instructed him to rob, beat and murder female pastors. I respectfully request that you stop disparaging God-fearing Christians by associating this murderer to them.

 

I honestly believe, Rufus, that the teachings of Fundamentalism, in this case, contributed to this murder. I honestly think, further, that the teachings of fundamentalism lead to many negative things in the lives of women. I cannot back down from this belief.

 

Tater,

bmerr here. This, I believe, strikes at the heart of the feminist movement, and perhaps the issue at hand. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt whenever possible. With that in mind, I don't doubt that feminism was born from nothing less than bad male leadership.

It's a sad fact that Eph 5:22-24 is often quoted when the women are "getting out of line". But who would deny that if Eph 5:25-28 were given the same attention, there would likely never have been a feminist movement, since there would have been no excuse for it?

While I do not support feminism, I sympathize with those women who were so deprived of godly male leadership that they resorted to it. It's reminiscent of the daughters of Lot, who became pregnant by their father out of desperation, thinking that there was not a man on the earth who would have them (Gen 19:31-36).

The depths that are reached when men forsake the LORD!

In Christ,

bmerr

 

pizzaguy:tonofbricks: ,

bmerr here. I appreciate your understanding, and some good-natured jabs would have been appropriate, even welcome, all things considered.

I don't see that Phebe being referred to with "diakonos" would require her to have been a teacher. A few posts back I gave TaterTot both Strong's and Thayer's definitions of the word, and the main idea seemed to be that of a servant, which is how the word is translated in Rom 16:1.

Going on to 16:2, her work is described by the word "succourer", which I also gave to Tater from Strong's and Thayer's in the same post earlier. We could speculate on exactly what she did, perhaps anything and everything from washing feet to preparing food, perhaps along the lines that Martha busied herself with (Luke 10:38-40). I really don't see either word requiring that Phebe taught over men.

I think the point Paul was making in Gal 3:28 was not that everyone could do everything in the church, but that everyone had equal value in, and access to, Christ. It's true, God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34), yet God has established a chain of authority, and He has ordained that women are not to teach nor have authority over men.

It doesn't mean men are better, or that women are inferior. The first thing in Creation that God saw that was not good was that man was alone, and He determined to make man an "help meet for him". My paraphrase: "That boy's gonna need some help!"

I don't think it would be right to relegate the issue at hand to the class of "minutae", given the numerous admonitions about it in Scripture. Christianity is based on authority, and we cannot abide in the doctrine of Christ (2 John 9-11) if we disregard the chain of authority that God has set up. I know you don't mean, "it doesn't matter", but it may be more important than you think.

True. In Scripture we find words denoting each partner in depravity, "effeminate", and "abusers of themselves with mankind". And, for the record, neither of these shall inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 6:9-10).

All in all, you've not done badly, especially compared with the conduct of others who have had far less reason to get emotional about topics they were discussing. I include myself in this remark.

In Christ,

bmerr