Scholars vs. Laity

I'd be careful using that Scripture as proof text. We don't get the same revelations, of course, so I would be careful to apply it to ourselves, not interpret it to ourselves. I am not saying you have, I am just making a point we may be aware of, but others may not, for cautions sake.

 

I never seem to quite confident about what "folks" mean when they use the term "proof text", but I do think scripture often teaches "duble entendres" (sp?). Yes, Paul was speaking of his personal experience, but could it not also teach the principle that God will illuminate and enlighten the hearts of men called for specific purposes of God' will? He will in fact equip them to serve Him. Education and training simply serve to sharpen one's skill and knowledge and develops the ability to communicate the Gospel. Now God most certainly can imbue one with this as well, but God has chosen to accomplish this differently than simply creating gospel preaching automatons.

 

"but could it not also teach the principle that God will illuminate and enlighten the hearts of men..." I think that is virtually what I said bro. We use it as application to us.

Here is an incident of some proof-texting this verse. One could come along, and say, "see, Paul received revelations, and so do I, what, you don't believe the Bible? God is always giving me revelations."

I hope that helps clear up what I mean.

 

Thank You Brother. No "criticism" intended. I did have my own "duble entendre" intended, but I miscommunicated it.

 

No criticism assumed brother. I am not always clear, and wanted to clear that up a bit.

 

On this you and I agree completely. However I must ask you a question:

Do you really believe all pastors should hold a master's degree?

I think you are missing the point of where the arrogance appears. It's not in the amount of knowledge a scholar holds, but the amount of wisdom. I know of many, people who hold degrees in religion, Bible, pastoral counseling or whatever, but who lack in wisdom. That is to say, they hold positions of "authority" but their theology is lacking greatly and they deny or explain away the clear principals of the Word.

Therefore, when Havensdad says we should accept the position of Calvinism just because he says so based on the amount of knowledge he holds, it becomes arrogance instead of instruction.

Excellent! May I add this quote to my sig line?

 

Wat Bees a scola? Be dat a minista oh a Passa? Do he hasa go to da big school? do he be edumicated at Bobby Jones o Liberty? Do he be needin to node election and utter doctraine? Wat be his crumadentials? I be axin!

 

I didn't want to speak for you, but I was pretty sure I understood what you were saying and in what context.

 

I think it's arrogant to make such a comment, Luke, considering you have no idea what she knows.

 

This is relative, particularly when there are many different flavors of seminaries, denominations, beliefs, etc. I know Roman Catholic priests who hold doctorates. In the scope of truth, does that mean anything?

 

I came to the Baptist board to read, learn, exchange ideas, and yes debate I have found myself not debating things that I should, mainly because of personal attacks that I see happening everywhere. This does not do anything to edify the Kingdom. I made a vow to God my words would be to his glory, honor and edification.

I maintain you can speak with authority but still in love. If I cannot back up my point of view with scripture then I’ll remain silent, study and pray until I have an answer. I have not been to seminary as many of you have. But I fully believe God has given me revelations of his word. I also fully believe he rewards his servants that are diligently seek his truth through prayer and studying. He has rewarded me greatly as I seek His truth. When we debate let us keep in mind what is written in I Peter:

3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:

3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.

A servant in Christ

Jeff

 

OK, who would know more, the young pastor who is just out of school, or the aged saint who has studied the scriptures for maybe 60 years and has read the Bible through many dozens of times?

Those who are taught in the seminary are only as knowledgeable and correct as their teachers. If the teacher teaches error, that is what the student will learn. A great example of this is Ephesians 2:8.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

A person taught by a Calvinist will interpret the word "that" that I highlighted to refer to "faith", while most non-Calvinists say it refers to the word "saved".

Now, they both can't be correct, and the difference is major.

If you have been taught that the word "that" in this verse refers to the word "faith" in this verse, it is very difficult for that person to interpret this verse any other way, and likewise, if a person has been taught that the word "that" refers to the word "saved" that person will find it difficult to interpret the verse any other way. Your mind can actually be conditioned to perceive only one interpretation whether true or false. This is especially true of education, because we all tend to trust teachers, believeing them to be far more knowledgeable than ourselves or laymen. But many teachers teach error.

In my own case, I have been saved over 45 years and have read this verse many times. From the first time that I ever read this verse I naturally interpreted "that" to refer to the word "saved". And every Christian I knew in all these years interpreted this verse the same exact way. It was not until recently when I ran into Calvinists on this forum did I encounter persons who interpret this verse differently.

I still firmly believe that the word "that" in this verse refers to "saved", and believe those who believe it to refer to "faith" do so only because they have been taught and conditioned to do so. Of course, a Calvinist will believe the exact opposite.

But the point is this, education is only as accurate and truthful as those who are teaching. If you are studying under someone who is teaching error, that is exactly what you will learn. In this case, education is not an advantage but a detriment.

 

I didn't think it was necessary for most folks to have to clarify that we were talking about orthodox, protestant seminaries.
But obviously that's what we mean.

 

She has no theological degree- that's enough, unless she's a genius. If she claims to be a genius and can back that up or declare that she does have some formal theological training- I will take it back.

 

Wonderful. This is exactly what I ask.

 

Wow, you are very proud and conceited.

Prov 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.