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Science in our public school systems

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by john6:63, May 5, 2003.

  1. kandibear2801us

    kandibear2801us New Member

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    We had a very fine Creationism seminar at our church and I questioned him about my children in public schools and them not passing tests because they didn't believe in evolution and he said this.. If you raise your children to believe in God and have your foundation in place when this comes about then they will know true and false doctrine and be ok in school. My husband and I both have to work and I am unable to homeschool and can't afford Christian Schools so my take on that is this I will not pull my child from a public school and try to shield him from society because when he grows up he will need to know what he is facing in life. My husband was Christian Homeschooled and he is so wonderful and intelligent and my hats go off to all you homeschooling families!!
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    I find it interesting that the same word
    can have various meanings. Often it is
    the true Scripture, the written word of God,
    that means various to different people.

    For example look at "day".
    I'm using THE RANDOM HOUSE COLLEGE DICTIONARY,
    REVISED EDITION (Random House, 1982)
    cause i have one.

    Day1 - the interval of light between two
    successive nights (i.e. an average 12-hour
    day but can vary by season between an 4-hour
    day and a 20-hour day)

    Day2 - the light of day; daylight
    (i.e. as #1 only emphasising the quality
    not the time)

    Day3 (AKA: 24-hour day)

    Day3A - (AKA: mean solar day)
    - the average length of the period in which the earth makes one
    rotation in the sky (relative to the sun)

    Day3B -- a division of time
    equal to the time elapsed between two consecutive
    returns of the same terrestrial meridian to
    the sun

    Day3C - (AKA: civil day)
    - a division of time equal to 24-hours but recokened
    from one midnight to the next.

    Sidereal Day3D - (23 hr 56 min day)
    - the interval between two successive passages of the
    vernal equinox over the meridain

    48-hour Day3E -- (not mentioned in dictionary)
    - a division of time during which all meridians
    experience the same day3 (i.e. a named day
    like 1 March 2003 is found somewhere on the
    earth for 48-hours)

    Day4 -- a day like the Day3 type days but
    on another planet

    Day5 - (i.e. 8-hour day)
    - the part of a Day3 devoted to labor

    Day 6 -- (often cap.) a day3 assigned to
    a particular purpose or observation:
    New Year's Day

    Day 7 -- a time considered as
    propitious or opportune

    Day 8 -- (ofetn: Days) a particular time
    or period

    Day 9 -- period of existance, power, or influence
    in the days of the dinosaurs

    When "day" appears in Bible prophecy, we need to
    examine which meaning of day makes most sense.

    Read 2 Peter 3:10 "day of the Lord" in light
    of 2 Perter 3:8 (1,000 years = 1 day).
    What kind of dayX is "day" here?

    Not the 12-hour day1,
    not the 24-hour days3,
    not the otherworldy day4,
    not the 8-hour day5,
    not a 24-hour special day6.
    No we must choose between these days:

    Day7
    Day8
    Day9

    What is with all those verses starting
    with "and" in Genesis 1. In school they
    taught me NOT to start a sentence with "and"?
     
  3. john6:63

    john6:63 New Member

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    Deacon

    I appreciate the catch; actually my wife beat you to the punch. She remembers it as 9 million yrs old. So I called my geologist buddy and yep; it was an estimated 9 million. Like a few scientists, I guess I misinterpreted the data or just didn’t pay attention.

    He gave me a quick lesson in Carbon 14 dating. I posted it in the Creation Vs. Evolution Forum.
     
  4. john6:63

    john6:63 New Member

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    Edifier

    I hope coming from a SB that you’re end comment was a joke. If not, the Mormons have their own Bible. I guess they didn’t like the way the sentences were structured in the Holy Bible.

    I don’t think I would let a “college dictionary” explain to me what the Holy Sprit meant when He says an “X” amount of days = a year

    IMO, God said he created the earth in 6 days, 6 literal days, if this weren’t the case, as the examples stated below, he would have signified that each day would’ve represented “X” amount of days.

    (Numbers 14:33,34) Concerning Moses a day is for each year.

    (Ezekiel 4:4-6) Ezekiel is told to lie on his left side 390 for Israel and his right side 40 days for Judah = a day for each year.

    (2Peter3:8-10) a day is a 1,000 yrs. Peter may be quoting Moses in (Psa. 90:1-4)

    (Rev. 20:2-7) talks about Satan being bound in Hell for 1,000 yrs. No reference is made to doubt anything other than a literal 1,000 yrs. God doesn’t say that 1 day will be as a 1,000 yrs. Now IMO in Heaven it may very well be as one day, since I don’t believe that time will be a factor in heaven. Here on earth it will be a literal 1,000 yrs, unless otherwise specified.
     
  5. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    A few points.

    1. An excellent page on radiocarbon dating is here: http://www.c14dating.com/int.html
    You will find the dating is much more limited than your friend admitted -- it's about 50-75 THOUSAND years, tops.

    2. "Yom", the Hebrew word for "day" that is used in Genesis 1 also has most of the English meanings mentioned. However, when it is used to mean anything other than a 24 hour day (the presumed meaning without other phrases added), then one will find either a clear allegorical statement ("a thousand years is like a day..."), or the equivalent of the English prepositional phrase with it ("in the day of the Lord"...). With extremely few other exceptions, none of which are in Genesis 1, "yom " will always refer to a 24 hour day. There are other Hebrew words for extended or indefinite lengths of time. In using the references to evening and morning, clear markers of our 24 hour days, and in the use of ordinal numbers (first, second, third...), the clear meaning of 'yom' as a 24-hour day is emphasized in Genesis 1.

    One can agree or disagree with Genesis 1, but one should take it on its own terms as a clear historical narrative and not attempt to force other terms upon it which would then make it 'compatible' with evolution. Genesis 1 is a clear and definite refutation of both long ages and evolution the way it is written. Changing the interpretation to try to force-fit it with long ages and evolution does not do a thing regarding changing the intent of the author in describing the events as they happened.

    3. It is absolutely not enough to raise children to simply say "God did it" and not care how. This will encourage the kids to believe in the scientists rather than God, number one. This will undermine the entire faith eventually, for it makes the Bible subject to human interpretation, and the result is one of two: rejection of the whole "Biblical thing", which we have seen a lot of in our universities and colleges; or theistic evolution -- a position respected by neither side (evolution or creation) but used mightily anyway by evolutionists (see? it's possible to believe in both!). It's not possible to believe in both, for there are distinct contradictions and one must choose one way or the other. Theistic evolutionists, without any exceptions I have run across myself, all believe in man's wisdom above the biblical revelation. Man's wisdom, however, changes with the winds....

    4. The incredible amounts of evidence which deny evolution and support creation really should be learned by parents (and NOT from Hovind!) so that their children will know there is a reason for the hope their parents have. God did not present an opposing testimony in creation! Both creation and the Bible give strong and clear testimony to recent creation. To not learn and present that evidence is to lose by default to the public presentations of evolution. To abandon this extremely critical area, which is actually the foundation of the entire Bible (every major doctrine has its roots in Genesis), is to offer your child sand instead of rock on which to base his faith: human wisdom trumps God's Word. This does not deny salvation, but it can deny an effective witness for Christ in this life.

    5. It's not simply a matter of a 'supernatural designer' being 'obvious.' It's a matter of knowing you can trust God to communicate clearly in His Word. He either is or is not trustworthy in His communication to us.
     
  6. john6:63

    john6:63 New Member

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    Helen

    Where are the parents to learn about the evidence against evolution and for creation? I asked my parents 2 days ago how old they thought the earth was and they both replied millions of years old. I believe Dr. Hovid is an excellent guide and teacher for us parents so we may better explain to our kids and to wittness effectively to others.

    Parents have to learn from someone. Whether it’s reading books as “Darwin’s leap of faith” or the “signature of God” or from Dr. Hovid. So that way when their kids come home from school and say at the diner table that his/her ancestors was an ape, their parents can successfully denounce that.
     
  7. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    Modern science taught in public schools denies the Scripture by contradiction and/or silence.

    Science (so-called) teaches that human death is a normal biological function of the aging process and not the result of sin. Evolution teaches that death was here from the beginning before man came ("evolved") upon the scene.

    The literalness of the person of Adam is taught in both the OT and the NT and that death came AFTER Adam sinned. The person of Adam is inextricably woven into a six/seven solar day creation.

    The model of a six/seven solar day week is used in the Scripture to confirm the duration of the act of the creation of heaven and earth.

    HankD
     
  8. mark

    mark <img src =/mark.gif>

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    My wife graduated in science education from the University of Iowa ( a VERY secular university) in 1985. They were taught to teach that evolution is a THEORY and a BAD theory at that. They were instructed to show the problems with it. On the other hand it was never even suggested to mention creationism.
    I teach geography (in a public high school) and I teach like john6:63 was saying, that micro evolution is provable but there is no evidence for macro evolution. I would like to point the finger at two more organizations though.
    1) The National Geographic Society. There is no better creator of geography films and no bigger liar when it comes to evolution and earth-age. They present all of it as fact.
    2) The companies that produce Student Atlases for schools and specifically NYSTROM (owned by Herff Jones). Nystrom produces 2 main atlases, one really complete, one not as complete, but in the inside cover in the "better" of the two is "world facts". The first fact cited is that the earth is 4.6 billion years old. We had a grant to buy new atlases and I ordered the "not so good ones" and I was called by the company and it was pointed out to my principal that I was not getting the good one that was a MUCH better deal, so I got to explain to NYSTROM and HAD to explain to my administration that I would not order something that presented lies (or at best theeories) as facts. I was told by both I was over-reacting. But it is my classroom and I got the ones I wanted. BTW about every 5 years, the earth ages by 100 million years according to the atlas publishers.
     
  9. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    John6:63: " ... the Mormons have their own Bible."

    Actually, they have two:
    BOOK OF MORMON
    DOCTRINE & COVENANTS.

    John6:63: //I don’t think I would let a “college dictionary”
    explain to me what the Holy Sprit meant when
    He says an “X” amount of days = a year//

    Sorry, i'm not buying anything today from your
    cult of ignorance. Where does the Bible say how
    many days are in a year? BTW, i do know how to make
    a reference for quotation; very useful when doing
    comparative studies. Also a legal requirement when
    quoting somebody. You do have an on-line lawyer, yes?

    John6:63: "IMO, God said he created the earth in 6 days,
    6 literal days, if this weren’t the case, as the
    examples stated below, he would have signified that
    each day would’ve represented “X” amount of days."

    NOtice your opinion has NOTHING to do with what God
    would really do. Well, unless God has died and left
    you in charge [​IMG]

    John6:63: "I hope coming from a SB that you’re end comment was a joke."

    It was no joke. I also note that the end-time prophecy
    of Jesus in Matthew 24 has a lot of verses that
    start with "and". I'm not sure it is the same
    "and" we use a lot to connect similar ideas all
    the time.

    I said: //What is with all those verses starting
    with "and" in Genesis 1. In school they
    taught me NOT to start a sentence with "and"? //

    I probably should have said:

    What is with all those verses starting
    with "and" in Genesis 1? In school they
    taught me NOT to start a sentence with "and".

    So what is the answer to my question?
     
  10. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    John, Hovind is a popularizer. He is a charismatic (personally, not doctrinally) speaker who is, quite frankly, not wedded to the truth. A reasonable amount of what he presents is a combination of his opinion and outdated material.

    Although I do not agree with everything they put out, ICR (Institute of Creation Research --http://www.icr.org/store/ ) is an excellent resource for educational materials for children. On a more adult level, the True Origins website at www.trueorigin.org has an excellent series of essays and other material written by the scientists themselves for the most part.

    A few books I think are very worthwhile reading are:

    Icons of Evolution by Jonathan Wells
    http://www.arn.org/arnproducts/books/b038.htm

    Biology by Rebecca Keller
    http://www.arn.org/arnproducts/rs4k/rs10.htm

    "Unlocking the Mystery of Life" is an outstanding video that I could not recommend more highly:
    http://www.arn.org/arnproducts/videos/v026.htm

    The above are from Access Research Network (ARN) here: http://www.arn.org/
    Scan their material for other excellent material.

    And I will always recommend my husband's website for those who are interesting in the physics material and time question: www.setterfield.org

    We will be adding to the geology section soon and will start a biology section, I think, also.

    Doug Sharp has kept up a very good page on the evolution/creation material from the creation point of view here:
    http://www.rae.org/

    And this is just the uppermost tip of the iceberg.

    David Plaisted has kept up with a lot of stuff here:
    http://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/ce/

    Lambert Dolphin keep up a resource page with all kinds of stuff on it -- use the library and then the search engine to find what you may be interested in: http://www.ldolphin.org/

    The list goes on...there is plenty of solid material out there for anyone who wants it.
     
  11. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Thank you, Sister Helen, for the nice
    list of books. They are useful study. [​IMG]
     
  12. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    I might add that i live in Oklahoma where
    half the adults are members of a Baptist
    church. So probably half the teachers
    in the public school system are also Baptists
    (recall that "Baptist" covers a large
    territory and a varity of religious
    beliefs other than the basic fundamentals
    of Christianity).
    And probably half the science teachers
    in the public school are also Baptists.
    I know my High School Biology teacher
    was a member of the Christian Church across
    the street from his biology lab.
    When i first went to college i took Botany
    from a Baptist. In fact, four years later,
    after some Air Force time, i was a member
    of the same church (Trinity Baptist, Ada,
    Oklahoma) as this biology teacher. Needless
    to say, he mentioned the evolution of species
    as a poor theory that some other Biologists
    had, but he was a Creationist.

    The milage of others may vary. [​IMG]
    (note to the humor impaired: the
    phrase "the milage of others may vary"
    comes from car ads on TV. They will claim
    an exceptional milage for their car
    and end with the caveat: "the milage
    of others may vary" so they can't be sued
    for false advertizing. Thus the phrase
    "the milage of others may vary" means that
    the experience of others may not be exactly that
    which i have had.)
     
  13. john6:63

    john6:63 New Member

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    Edifier

    Huh?
    I never suggested that God left me in charge.

    With the number of examples I referred you to, God referred to each day to represent a number of years. In Genesis God never refers to a day as being 1000 or any other number of years.

    You see Edifier, if God said He created the earth in 6 days, and then I take His word as literal and He created it in 6 days. I’m not going to run to a college dictionary and try to figure out what God the author of the Bible “really” meant to say when he said “…. And the evening and the morning were the first day.”

    Furthermore, I’m not going to question the Holy Sprits grammar. IMO it's silly to do so. Science teaches a lot of garbage in college that isn't true. Do you believe that as well?
     
  14. john6:63

    john6:63 New Member

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    Helen

    Thanks for the recommended reading material and websites. [​IMG]
     
  15. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    John6:63: "Science teaches a lot of garbage in college
    that isn't true."

    I agree.
    But you have no idea what my agreement means.

    Sorry, got some other stuff to do today.
    Talk to you later.

    May all God's best blessings be unto
    Brother John6:63 this very day and unto
    his family and his ministry.
    May this be done so that we might give all
    the more honor and glory unto our blessed
    Lord and Savior: Messiah Yeshua. Amen!
     
  16. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    John6:63: "I never suggested that God left me in charge."

    well, maybe i extrapulated a bit from what you said.

    John6:63: "IMO, God said he created the earth in 6 days,
    6 literal days, if this weren’t the case, as the examples
    stated below, he would have signified that each
    day would’ve represented “X” amount of days."

    This seems to put a stipulation on what God
    aught to have done. As Sister Helen alluded to:
    God told us everything we need to know in
    His Bible. But i'm here to say that God didn't
    tell us everything about everything.
    I still use a technical manual to adjust the
    time on my clock, not the Bible.
    God told us everything important in His Holy Bible;
    not everything we will ever need.

    Of such is the timing of creation.
    The age of the universe doesn't effect my
    salvation one bit. Only Jesus and Him crucified
    and resurrected effects my salvation.
    [​IMG]
     
  17. john6:63

    john6:63 New Member

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    Edifier

    I don’t mean to start a disagreement. I was raised IFB and I lost connection with God as a teenager and during my 20s. My wife was raised Baptist, but when I met her she was Methodist (b/c of her grandmother)so I also became Methodist. Later, actually 6 months ago, I rededicated and surrender my life to Christ. My wife and I got really involved with our church. Sunday schools, Disciple classes…etc, anything I could find to learn more about Gods plan.

    We found ourselves struggling with the various types of Bibles being used and I’m not a KJVO proponent. I just felt that the class needed to pick a Bible version and use it. If one wants to study with an NIV then fine, it’s difficult to follow along when a lady is reading a “good news Bible” and you’re reading a KJV Bible. On top of that the classes we were in, stayed in a disagreement about taking the Bible literally. Instead of studying, many argued…politely, about if the 6-day creation was literal or just in “Gods Time” and the same with the 7-year Tribulation. The Methodist is very liberal (which I’m not) so we gracefully bowed out.

    So we found an IFB church, which we really enjoy. I’m very passionate about taking the Bible literally and creation vs. evolution. I used to post on various atheists message boards, until it realized, what’s the point in arguing the obvious. Imagine discussing with someone the earth is round….it’s like clapping with one hand…impossible.

    Once I signed up for this board I was surprised that some Baptist believed in some portion of evolution and some don’t take the Bible literally. But hey, that’s what a message board is…to discuss ones views.

    May God bless you and your family, Edifier
    [​IMG]

    [ May 08, 2003, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: john6:63 ]
     
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    JOhn6:63: "Once I signed up for this board I was surprised that some Baptist believed in some portion of evolution and some don’t take the Bible literally. But hey, that’s what a message board is…to discuss ones views"

    Yes, my wife was surprised when she got on this
    Baptist Board and found out about all the flavors
    of Baptists. I'd read like the 7th edition of
    HANDBOOK OF DENOMINATIONS IN THE UNITED STATES
    and was prewarned (plus i'd had some contact with
    other types of Baptists). Yes, Baptists are
    not homogenious (all alike). But i found in large
    they are all Baptists and hold to a common
    Baptistic background.

    John6:63: "May God bless you and your family, Edifier"

    And may it be double blessings to you wherein
    you prayed for God to bless me.
    Actually if i didn't here somebody I'd say:
    "and double back to you". If the asked for me
    a blessing i asked for them a double blessings;
    if they cursed me, i asked for a double cursing
    back [​IMG]

    I need to run close on an condominium for
    my son to live in which he finishes the last
    two years of college. Fortunately he is taking
    fine arts (music composition) and not one of
    those hairy science programs [​IMG]
    I have a degree in Secondary
    Education in Math & Physics and i have anotaher
    degree in Electrical Engineering.
     
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