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Scriptural training and correction or violence?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Bartimaeus, Feb 20, 2006.

  1. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Years ago I was working in a country where it was illegal to spank children and crime was almost zero. In fact many saw America as a war zone. I am not against spanking but I did have to ask myself and restudy the Bible and determine what I thought real discipline is. I came to the conclusion that discipline is helping to develop in another a sound mind. To develop a sound mind in another requires a lot from the adults and the children. It requires that the authority be one who is ready to stand by and do whatever it takes to help the child succeed, be self disciplined and think corectly. Sometimes punishment is harmful and other times it works well. Discipline always works effectively. Discipline meets out what is necessary. Sometimes it is patience that is needed. Sometimes what is needed is harsh words and maybe harsh actions against evil or flagrant disobedience.
     
  2. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Some children who are spanked end up rebellious anyway and some children who are not spanked grow up still respecting their parents. There is no way to prove that spanking is necessary. The NT verses about chastening are not referring to physical beating or spanking.

    I was spanked as a child, and I can tell you that the effect on me was to make me angry, to feel hatred, and to be determined to go against my parents anyway. I never felt repentant after a spanking.

    I've also been physically and emotionally abused, and if you haven't been through that, you can't relate to how it feels. Because of this abuse, I did not spank my son. I was not a believer until he was 9 yrs. old, but I am glad I did not spank him. He is a fine young man who loves the Lord.
     
  3. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    I'm going to go out on a limb an divulge a little of my past to you, and then you can judge me as you will.

    I was not raised in a 'religious' household. Growing up, my parents rarely spanked me. When I got them, in most cases I probably really deserved them. But I was generally a pretty good kid, at least until I was about 12. At this time, my earthly father decided that he needed to find himself or something, and my parents got divorced. I havent seen my dad since I was 19 years old, I just turned 31 yesterday. But I digress.

    After my parents split up, I began to rebel seriously against my poor mother. I'm not holding her responsible for not disciplining me, as a single mother with two adolescent children, I don't have any idea what she was going through, but I do know that she was a strong woman and if she wanted to, she could have taken me to task and even as rebellious as I was, I don't know if I would have had the nerve to fight with her... anyway, I had gotten into the habit of sneaking out of the house at night, going to visit friends, do drugs, see girls, whatever. I would steal my mom's car sometimes and drive around town. I just opened my bedroom window and jumped out after my mom went to bed. Then I would climb back in when I was done. She caught me numerous times, and she would be so angry. But I never once got spanked, and I never once really felt bad for what I did. I thought my mom was just over-reacting and I blew it off and continued to do whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted.

    Well one day, I went to my grandmothers house for a visit, and that visit turned into an extended stay. I ended up living there for almost a year, and I never found out why until right before I came home. It seems that someone may have been observing me leaving and entering my bedroom window, and after I went out of town, a man climbed into my window that I had left unlocked and raped my mother in her own home. I would trade all the stripes in the world to be able to go back and do it all over, to be obedient and respectful to my mother. But I can't.
     
  4. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    eloidalmanutha:

    Too often parents give their children what they did not have but little or none of what they were given. We cannot always throw out everything just because we did not like some things about our parents.
     
  5. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    thank you gb and marcia . . .

    you have stated what I really wanted to say. we have to look at how believers are supposed to deal with kids per God's whole counsel, not just the OT. we are living in a new covenant, we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. this requires, demands us, to view life through a different lens.

    what was OT practice has been changed by the Sacrifice of Jesus. He was scourged and beaten and suffered for our sins. He took our sin upon Himself, was made sin for us. Are we taking His sacrifice and applying it to discipline properly? Is there a new, more righteous way to view discipline? As Jesus said, our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees/Law.

    like everything in our spiritual walk, we have to weigh our actions by the light of a new directive. Love is patient and kind. it requires a harder path. to train up a child requires brain work. to train that child spiritually requires harder work yet. I guess one could say that spanking seems quicker, but a consecrated effort to train a child what is right and wrong from a spiritual, Biblical way is harder and requires prayer, creativity, if you will, wisdom, mercy - to reach out to train properly without force.

    Perhaps I am too close to the problem. Too many kids, too many adults who have been terrorized in the Name of God. my parents were disciplinarians. I saw zero effort on their part to train me. spanking was their way to break me down, not lift me up to awareness of sin. it was their vent to force me to be who I could not be. perfection cannot be attained as a child.

    it was not until I gave my life fully to God that I truly understood chastisement. Not because God beat me up or "spanked" me, but because He showed me firsthand the consequences of sin.

    We cannot train our children to bypass God's chastisement. It is not possible. We CAN train them to submit to God in love. And that WILL make them open to God's discipline.

    and yeah, I jumped back in when I said I wouldn't, but I couldn't stop thinking about this and God kept nudging me ;)
     
  6. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    that is a terrible burden to carry. I am so sorry that you have to live with that trauma.

    I can understand how you have pushed discipline into the forefront because of what you perceive to be the failure of your mom.

    your life growing up had no direction, no firmness, no training. Discipline HAS to be viewed from several perspectives, not just a physical one, but I totally understand that your view has been skewed in a sense, because you have decided that if you had been spanked, things might have been different.

    let me ask you, if in spanking your children, you are not in effect meeting out which you feel you deserve? I pray in some way there can be a probing of your heart to seek God and resolve some of this with Him.

    My apologies for coming on so hard. I should have known there was an underlying cause for your harshness. You have been through so much - I pray that God will touch your heart as only He can do.

    shalom [may the healing, restoring peace of God be in your heart, soul, and mind - Jesus is our Prince of Peace - Sar Shalom - John 14:27 & 16:33]
     
  7. Diggin in da Word

    Diggin in da Word New Member

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    The rod that the shepherds used was also for breaking a stray lamb's leg, Helen. I know, I have studied this over the years and even corresponded with shepherds from Israel.

    The rod of correction is to hurt. This lets the offender know he has done wrong. After breaking the lambs leg, the shepherd would pick up that lamb and carry it close to it's heart. He carried it for days until that lamb could walk again. Then the lamb was less likely to stray, and he remembered the love the shepherd showed during the time he was healing.
     
  8. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    I don't believe I have pushed discipline to the forefront, I believe it is an important part of a balanced relationship with a child. Believe me, it is easy to wan't to be my son's buddy all the time, especially having missed out on a lot with my own father, but you can't be a buddy and be an authority at the same time. I absolutely agree that abusing children is wrong, but I absolutely disagree that spanking children when they need a spanking is abuse, and I believe that 99% of the time, not spanking them is more harmful in the long run. I think you would find death row to be full of people who wish they had been disciplined more growing up.

    God bless, I'm leaving work and going home now.
     
  9. Brice

    Brice New Member

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    eloidalmanutha,

    I have to say I agree with you 100% on this subject. I'm starting to get a little scared, [​IMG] we better get to disagreeing soon before they shut us down. :D
     
  10. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    James, after this post of yours:
    it isn't easy to believe you haven't pushed it to the forefront.

    Now, how much sense does this make? You were raised with no physical discipline and wish you were.
    I was raised with a lot of physical discipline and wish I wasn't.

    Sounds like despite our different upbringings, we both didn't act right in our teens. :confused:

    Point is, physical discipline is easy to overdo. Be careful. We're to help mold a child's spirit, not break it, and far too often a parent thinks that the point is to break the child. It's not a horse or a puppy, it's a kid. (in other words, toss the Pearl books iffen ya got 'em)

    I would like to see the idea of beating a child being in the OT, vs being absent in the NT. That hasn't been addressed.

    I also didn't see anyone answer the very common sense point of the verses in the OT being geared towards teens/young men, who tend to do things harmful to their spiritual selves, rather little kids.
     
  11. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    As I said before, there is a balance. The correct answer is one and only one of the following.
    a. always come out swinging
    b. throw out the baby with the bath water
    c. accept the wisdom of the holy spirit and spank a child when it is necessary

    Women sometimes seem to be ultra sensitive to these types of issues and can only see these things in black and white. Because I say I 'beat' my child (which means what, to strike repeatedly?) you can only imagine that I am a child abuser that canes my child for not using the restroom before we leave the house.

    When I said what I said in the above quote, I only meant that if you spank your child for something and they keep doing it, something is wrong with your technique. If the rod doesn't drive the foolishness away, then it was not the rod of correction, it was the rod of wasting your time. Little bottoms are tougher than mommys think they are, and if it turns bright red, that doesn't mean it is going to fall off.

    If you believe that you were disciplined too harshly growing up, maybe you were. But when a person who claims the name of Christ condemns the wisdom of the Bible as 'abusive', I'm inclined to suggest that person is not wise except in their own eyes. To accept conventional worldly wisdom that spanking harms children above God's admonition that if you spare the rod you hate your son is foolishness plain and simple.

    Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

    If you wan't your children to grow up worldly, raise them the way the world tells you to. If you wan't them to grow up godly, raise them the way God tells you to. It's not rocket science.
     
  12. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus New Member

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    Duet 9:27 Remember thy servants, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; look not unto the STUBBORNNESS of this people, nor to their wickedness, nor to their sin:

    This stubbornness does not start when a person reaches 30 years old.

    Duet 21:18 If a man have a STUBBORN and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

    This stubborn heart does not start as a young man (as mentioned above by our friend from Michigan) of 16 years old.

    Pr 5:12 And say, How have I hated instruction, and my HEART despised reproof;

    The most simple interpretation of this verse realizes this verse as past tense. A childs heart is hard and stubborn and time out only causes a child to sit and stew. They are angered and hateful and obstinate the whole time they are "grounded". (or held down, or physically restricted or doped) I have personnally witnessed this attitude in children abused this way. I have seen children that at 9 years old so out of control that the mother could no longer "restrain" them and "redirect" their mental thoughts that even with wrestling them to the floor to try to sit on them so as to not hurt them or abuse them the mother was injured. I have seen this with my own eyes. This is not the answer. Pay attention.

    Eph 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to WRATH: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

    Those of you who bow down to methods of psychology such as "restrain and redirect" and imprisonment of a child in a corner or their room for time out or grounding....are sinning against God. You incite your children to wrath during their imprisonment and add to their frustration.

    Spank the child, sit with the child and love them and then talk to them and talk to God, pray. Wrestling and imprisonment is not scriptural. That is abuse.

    Thanks -----Bart
     
  13. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus New Member

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    Gina L.
    I have just started to answer your last post in ref to OT v NT and child rearing. I will show you more later. Leaving for work now.
    Thanks ----Bart
     
  14. standingfirminChrist

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    The Bible plainly tells us that if we withhold the rod, we hate the child.

    Back in the 80's, one of my brothers came to live with mother and I in South Carolina. He brought his daughter with him (his wife and he divorced a few years back)

    Mike would allow Laveda to get by with too much. When she backtalked or mocked or cursed (yes, I said cursed), or threw things, he would warn her. 'If you do that again, I am going to spank you'.

    Laveda would continue. Mike would get upset and walk out. The next time he walked in, she would start over. He warned over and over and then in a fit of rage, he would then beat Laveda, leaving bruises.

    Now, if he had corrected her each time she misbehaved, not just promise a spanking, but give that spanking when needed, she would not have suffered bruises at his hands.

    I can say though that the Bible was right, the beating did not kill her.

    But because the correction was not applied correctly, Laveda ended up being a crackhead like her mother was. Long and short of it?

    The Bible is correct when it says withhold not the rod. It is also right on when it says train up a child in the way it should go and when it is old it shall not depart from it.
     
  15. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    Thanks Bart, I look forward to your reply later!

    James...and seriously, this is addressed to him only, for a specific reason!

    Rarely, if ever, do people get bent out of shape over something they don't do and are not accused of doing, unless they're doing it. The guilty are the only ones I know of that defend themselves when there's been no charge.

    I seriously urge you to consider whether or not your attitude towards discipline is in the right spirit.

    I am so overly familiar with the attitude you're displaying, and almost EVERY time I can peg the person as an extremist IFB, KJVO, dresses only on women, overabundance of books that address child rearing and spanking.

    These aren't our children, these are God's children, think of it that way the next time you feel motivated to beat a kid.
     
  16. standingfirminChrist

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    Spanking and beating are two different things. When you put off a spanking and put off a spanking, when you finally do decide to correct, it is generally an overabundance of correction, turning into abuse.

    Pr 23:13
    Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
    Pr 23:14
    Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

    The Hebrew word for beatest is 'nakah' meaning, 'give stripes, strike'

    Witholding that 'beating' is contrary to God's Woed. But the 'beating' here is not more than a spanking, leaving a stripe is less severe than leaving a bruise.
     
  17. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    I am starting to get a little bent out of shape. But I really have no regard for your opinion of myself, especially in light of your opinion of the holy scripture. I would just hate for a young parent to read your posts and think that they equate to wisdom just because it says bible believer under your name. I would hope you realize that the bible says we will give account for every idle word.

    Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

    Do you know the Lord's will concerning discipline?
     
  18. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    Bart, StandingFirm, praise God there are still some people with convictions who will let their light shine. I'm going to leave this conversation in your care.
     
  19. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    I believe I do, although I'm always open to learning more. However, you haven't offered that at all, only a defense of what wasn't said. That is why I am singling you out over other peope on here. Your attitude is TOTALLY different.

    I have three daughters who behave beautifully for the most part.
    Have I ever beat them? No.
    They have never done anything to deserve a beating.

    At times, mostly when they were 3-6, they received swats, no more than three, and they weren't exposed for them, and neither did it leave marks. Right now I have two nine year olds and an 11 year old, and they can all count on one hand the number of times they can remember getting swats. In fact, the one couldn't even remember.

    If beating them is what I was supposed to do for them to be turning out right, they've beaten all the odds because these are some lovely children with great behavior and a lot of desire to please God.

    I hope that young parents on here DO read this, and realize that there is a difference between discipline and abuse. God gives us guidelines for discipline, and does not tell us to beat our young children as a method of controlling them. That happens far too often in the name of Christianity, and it isn't right.
    Severe consequences for severe behavior. Acting like a kid isn't a severe behavior.

    Time outs, holding, redirecting, and a couple swats are not merely inventions of demon-possessed psychologists of the world out to see you send your child to hell in a hand-basket. They're ways of teaching your child correct behavior and how to control themselves. It may take a few more minutes than whipping out a rod and beating them into immediate submission, but it's well worth the effort.
     
  20. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus New Member

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    Gina L.

    Some years ago in Hong Kong a 20 or 21 year old American male was caught vandalizing autos. He was sentenced to be "caned" in public. There was much uproar in the US. I would like to know if you think this is appropriate punishment for the crime? Do you think this is archaic and/or barbarian in nature?
    Thanks ----Bart
     
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