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Scriptures calvinists must deal with...

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Alive in Christ, Apr 18, 2011.

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  1. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    Iconoclast...

    And yet God says...

    And it goes without saying that this is not an isolated passage. The principle is brought up consistantly, and forcefully, all through both the old and new testaments.

    AiC
     
    #41 Alive in Christ, Apr 19, 2011
  2. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    And what came 1st, the chicken or the egg? :wavey:
     
    #42 Alive in Christ, Apr 19, 2011
  3. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Whatever we are told. Unless the sentence structure is completely different in the Greek, we see one is the cause of the other.
     
    #43 annsni, Apr 19, 2011
  4. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    Annsni...


    Well, then you have a BIG problem on your hands. The view that you are suggesting is that God has already damned them to unbelief and perishing in hell.

    While the scriptures clearly tell us that God DOES NOT want ANY to perish....


    And I would be sitting here typing for hours if tried to post every scripture that promotes that truth.

    aIc
     
    #44 Alive in Christ, Apr 19, 2011
  5. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    To all the Calvinists on here...

    Do you share Christ with people when you have opportunity?

    If so...why? For what reason?

    If Almighty God has already designated the lucky ones for heaven, and has also designated the ulucky ones to eternal damnation, why evangelize?

    I mean, its all already been settled. Before we were even born. The saved are saved. The condemned are condemed. Its been determined.

    Do you evangelize for no other reason then to get them to go to a church somewhere?
     
    #45 Alive in Christ, Apr 19, 2011
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    AIC,

    The scripture says the chicken came first.

    If you understood 2pet3 correctly ,it is no problem at all.

    God is most willing that many perish, multitudes......but none of the beloved
     
    #46 Iconoclast, Apr 19, 2011
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    God has ordained the ways and the means.
    he has elected many...he sends His word forth to all men,
    The sheep hear and live....the goats mock, God , his word, and His people, and perish justly for their sins.

    much people....not all....not all must have a fair chance...much people.

    A biblical christian obeys the gospel commision and seeks to bring the word of life to all he or she has opportunity to.
     
    #47 Iconoclast, Apr 19, 2011
  8. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Yes, God does not want anyone to perish but they do, correct? So there's another part to the story here. Either God is too weak to get His way or there's something that is greater than His desire to have everyone saved. Calvinists believe that "something" is God's sovereignty and Arminians believe that it is man's will.
     
    #48 annsni, Apr 19, 2011
  9. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Well, first of all, God doesn't "designate the unlucky ones to eternal damnation" because that is the natural end to their depravity. They happily go there. ALL are destined to the same end - it is not that God "designates" some to go there.

    However, I will answer your question and it's a simple answer. We evangelize because God told us to.

    Now for a more lengthy answer: I evangelize because God has chosen to sometimes use me to bring people the Gospel and I count it a privilege to work alongside Him to see a soul be saved. What a glorious thing it is to watch a new babe in Christ be born and while they would be born anyway in some form or fashion, what a joy it is to be there and be a part of it. It has refined me, grown me and encouraged me in a way that nothing else could.
     
    #49 annsni, Apr 19, 2011
  10. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    You keep repeating that, but I asked a couple times already if desire = decree? Yes or no.
     
    #50 webdog, Apr 19, 2011
  11. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Oh, this looks like fun. Apparently to understand a simple text we can add as many qualifiers as we want. If Scripture say God is not willing, we can reverse that to redefine willing and for none we can add "of the beloved" to make it work. The nerve to say WE don't understand it...
     
    #51 webdog, Apr 19, 2011
  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    In 2pet3:9 there are two words for willing ...thelo, and beulemai SP?

    the verse is not speaking of God wishing for something to happen....

    the verse means that God has decreed ,destined ,and purposed that none of the beloved elect will be lost.

    The whole passage is a contrast between the godly, beloved , elect, foreknown of God......and the ungodly, who scoff, and resist the sovereign grace of God.....Just read the passage...stop mis-using it like it is a verse from a poem in english class, that the teacher wants you to re interpret it.
     
    #52 Iconoclast, Apr 19, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 19, 2011
  13. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Appaently some have read the passage. Completely illogical for God to be patient with what amounts to Himself and desiring that none of the elect perish, as if is even a possibility. The devil is the author of confusion.
     
    #53 webdog, Apr 19, 2011
  14. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-15)

    You have a strange understanding of Scripture.
    You say: "They happily go there."??????????
     
    #54 DHK, Apr 19, 2011
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The fact is you do not understand it at all.If you understood it,in context it would not be a problem WD

    work through the whole passage.....your view is wrong..flat out wrong.
    Your view is not right. Your view contains massive error. Your view describes a god who cannot do what he purposes to do...he must answer to man.


    Let me make it clear WD.....you are wrong here...and if you understood ROMANS 5:12-21....you would not post what you do...yes, back to that error.

    The one error..leads to these others that you have posted in the past few weeks.

    Work through the passage and show how it does not mean what many of us have declared it means.....enlighten us. Start at 3:1 and work down to the end as time permits.
     
    #55 Iconoclast, Apr 19, 2011
  16. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I will deal with the long suffering of God later, I know you have an issue with this. Must drive now, later wd.

    Here is a clue....
    also written by Paul.....and what was Paul discussing in Rom9? same idea ...right wd of course you agree with me....right:laugh::laugh:
     
    #56 Iconoclast, Apr 19, 2011
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I don't agree with you, but let me give you the benefit of the doubt on this one verse. Even if it says what you say it teaches here, you can't get off so easy in this passage:

    [God] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4)
    --This is even more forceful and the teaching of God's will that all be saved is more clearly stated than the passage in 2Pet.3:9. It is an undeniable truth that God's will is for all to be saved. It is also an undeniable fact that God's will is not always accomplished.

    Thousands upon thousands of people pray "as Jesus taught them to pray,"
    Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

    But is it? No. Rarely is God's will ever accomplished on earth as it is in heaven. Think about it. How is God's will accomplished in heaven? When you have that answer then compare it to those that pray this oft memorized prayer. In this context God's will is rarely accomplished.
     
    #57 DHK, Apr 19, 2011
  18. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Yes they do - until they face the Creator. Then they realize that they were wrong. But have you ever spoken to an unsaved person about heaven and hell? I can't begin to tell you how many people have said they'd rather go to hell than heaven. Seriously. They go happily.
     
    #58 annsni, Apr 19, 2011
  19. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    No Regeneration. I just attended an event with a cousin who told me that he would rather go to hell & be with his friends than heaven. Imagine that....and he was serious too.
     
    #59 Earth Wind and Fire, Apr 19, 2011
  20. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I get it, I'm wrong just because you say I'm wrong...and not only here, but everywhere we disagree! The shock!

    Of course you cannot consider your understanding of these texts to be in error.
     
    #60 webdog, Apr 19, 2011
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