SDA and the heresy on hell

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by rockytopva, Jan 30, 2018.

  1. rockytopva Member
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    I did not believe that the SDA did not believe that hell is eternal until I read it in a post a while ago. I am afraid hell is eternal and anyone saying otherwise is spreading heresy.

    7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
    8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
    9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. -Matthew 18

    40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. - Matthew 25

    6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
    7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. -Jude 1
     
  2. rockytopva Member
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  3. rockytopva Member
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    RW Schambach use to partner with an evangelist who was his afternoon speaker. That evangelist had a vision of men going through hell examining faces.

    The evangelist then asks aloud, "What are theses men doing?"

    The answer was, "They are looking for the preachers who lied to them."
     
  4. Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Sda church distorts and misunderstand major doctrines of the Christian faith....
     
  5. BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    A. the 28 Fundamental Beliefs are posted online.
    B. I am here.
    C. Matthew 10:28 "Fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell".

    So while the Lake of Fire does provide literal torment of literal fire and literal brimstone to literal lost souls in literal lake of fire -- that supernatural event will end with the "destruction of BOTH body AND soul".

    Even Satan himself will "be no more" -- will be reduced to ashes.

    Ezek 28
    “You had the seal of perfection,
    Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
    13 “You were in Eden, the garden of God;
    Every precious stone was your covering:
    The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
    The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
    The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
    And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
    Was in you.
    On the day that you were created
    They were prepared.
    14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers,
    And I placed you there.
    You were on the holy mountain of God;
    You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
    15 “You were blameless in your ways

    From the day you were created
    Until unrighteousness was found in you.
    16 “By the abundance of your trade
    You were internally filled with violence,
    And you sinned;
    Therefore I have cast you as profane
    From the mountain of God.
    And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,

    From the midst of the stones of fire.
    17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
    You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
    I cast you to the ground;
    I put you before kings,
    That they may see you.
    18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
    In the unrighteousness of your trade
    You profaned your sanctuaries.
    Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
    It has consumed you,
    And I have turned you to ashes on the earth

    In the eyes of all who see you.
    19 “All who know you among the peoples
    Are appalled at you;
    You have become terrified
    And you will cease to be forever.”’”

    Rev 20
    7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

    Exek 18:4 "the soul that sin - it shall die"
     
  6. BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I see the name-calling ad-hominem proof-by-name-calling bus that was so common in the dark ages -- has not yet perished from the earth
     
  7. rockytopva Member
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    Nobody preached hell hotter than the Lord Jesus Christ...
    Matthew 8:12
    But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    Matthew 22:13
    Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    Matthew 24:51
    And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    Matthew 25:30
    And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    Matthew 13:42
    And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    Matthew 13:50
    And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
     
  8. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Not exactly.

    Two mistakes made by Annihilationists are...

    1. They improperly impose into the term "soul" a meaning not found in Scripture, which uses the term to refer to persons. A few examples this can be indisputably seen are...


    Genesis 12:5
    King James Version (KJV)

    5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.


    Genesis 46:18
    King James Version (KJV)

    18 These are the sons of Zilpah, whom Laban gave to Leah his daughter, and these she bare unto Jacob, even sixteen souls.


    Acts 7:14
    King James Version (KJV)

    14 Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls.


    Acts 27:37
    King James Version (KJV)

    37 And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls.



    2, They do not understand that the "souls" being destroyed in Matthew 20:28 are not destroyed in the sense of cessation of existence.

    Consider:


    Matthew 10:28
    King James Version (KJV)

    28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.



    The point of the Lord is "Yes, men can kill you physically, but after that there is no more they can do to you. You, the person (soul) are still in existence, because men cannot kill on a spiritual basis, only in the physical."

    So what does it mean to "destroy a soul and body in Hell?"

    Let's cross reference another verse or two that uses the same word translated "to destroy" above (see link):


    Matthew 10:5-6
    King James Version (KJV)

    5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

    6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.



    Now wait a minute, if they have ceased to exist, just how exactly are the disciples going to minister to them?

    The answer is this: Israel was in a state of destruction when the Lord came. They had not ceased to exist, but, were separated from God, which is precisely the fate of the Lost.

    The destroying of Matthew 10:28 is no different, it is a state of destruction which has its root primarily the separation those in Hell will have from God.

    And when we look at the terminology and several very explicit statements of the everlasting nature of Hell elsewhere in Scripture, its easy to see that we cannot impose a cessation of existence into Matthew 28:10, just as we do not impose an immaterial aspect into every use of the word "soul." One might say, "But we see souls in Heaven!" That is true, because we see persons in Heaven. It is proper to say that someone who is dead is a soul, because they are still the same person. We don't call a dead body a soul, because the person is no longer with the body. God created man from the dust of the ground, breathed the breath of life into him, and he became a soul. Not that he was given one.

    One more:

    Matthew 18:11
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.



    Well we can be certain that these who are in a state of destruction did not cease to exist. But again, the "lost," those in that state, are lost because they are separated from God. That is the condition man is born into, and that is the condition that must be remedied prior to his death.

    Or he goes into eternity in that condition.

    I'll throw in one last point for free...


    3. The proof text does not say that God will "kill the soul," which would better suit the doctrine of Annihilationists because there is a finality to a killing. Think about it, if it said "Fear not them that destroy the body," would we impose a finality on it? Or would we leave room for a state of destruction in the physical, just as we see with "the lost" sheep of Israel? They were apollymi yet were still physically alive.

    Read it again, and see if this proof text denies the everlasting nature of Hell as taught in Scripture.


    Matthew 10:28
    King James Version (KJV)

    28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.



    God bless.
     
  9. BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I think you just shot your own point in the foot just then - correct??
     
  10. BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Ezek 18;4 "the soul that sins it shall die"

    I think your argument is floundering on that text
     
  11. BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    A. the 28 Fundamental Beliefs are posted online.
    B. I am here.
    C. Matthew 10:28 "Fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell".

    So while the Lake of Fire does provide literal torment of literal fire and literal brimstone to literal lost souls in literal lake of fire -- that supernatural event will end with the "destruction of BOTH body AND soul".

    Even Satan himself will "be no more" -- will be reduced to ashes.

    Ezek 28
    “You had the seal of perfection,
    Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
    13 “You were in Eden, the garden of God;
    Every precious stone was your covering:
    The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
    The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
    The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
    And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
    Was in you.
    On the day that you were created
    They were prepared.
    14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers,
    And I placed you there.
    You were on the holy mountain of God;
    You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
    15 “You were blameless in your ways

    From the day you were created
    Until unrighteousness was found in you.
    16 “By the abundance of your trade
    You were internally filled with violence,
    And you sinned;
    Therefore I have cast you as profane
    From the mountain of God.
    And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,

    From the midst of the stones of fire.
    17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
    You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
    I cast you to the ground;
    I put you before kings,
    That they may see you.
    18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
    In the unrighteousness of your trade
    You profaned your sanctuaries.
    Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
    It has consumed you,
    And I have turned you to ashes on the earth

    In the eyes of all who see you.
    19 “All who know you among the peoples
    Are appalled at you;
    You have become terrified
    And you will cease to be forever.”’”

    Rev 20
    7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

    Exek 18:4 "the soul that sin - it shall die"

    =============================================

    I think you just shot your own argument in the foot at the end of your post

    Ezek 18:4 "the Soul that sins it shall die"


    To the contrary

    Ezek 18:4 "the Soul that sins it shall die"

    Even Satan himself...
     
  12. Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Destruction does not mean to be caused to cease to exist, but to existing now apart from prsense of God forever!
     
  13. Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Sodom was destroyed, and yet those lost persons still xist, as jesus said that in final judgement they would rise up to speak against the generation of time of Christ!
     
  14. Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    Annihilationist teaching generally does not teach total destruction until after the final judgment. So they would be around at the final judgment, and would readily be available for that duty without undermining annihilationist teaching.

    However, your Bible has things in it that mine doesn't seem to have. Do you have a scripture that claims inhabitants of Sodom will have a speaking role in the final judgment? There's scripture very similar to that regarding the men of Nineveh (Matthew 12:41), but I think you are inventing scriptural support for your view.
     
  15. Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I might have had that passage you quoted in mind, just made an honest mistake! I think had in mind where the people of Sodom would have repented of their sins and believed Jesus if he had been in their midst.
    Simple truth is that God created Humans to be eternal, as both heaven and hell well last forever!
     
  16. BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    . Matthew 10:28 "Fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell".

    So while the Lake of Fire does provide literal torment of literal fire and literal brimstone to literal lost souls in literal lake of fire -- that supernatural event will end with the "destruction of BOTH body AND soul".

    Even Satan himself will "be no more" -- will be reduced to ashes.

    Ezek 28
    “You had the seal of perfection,
    Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
    13 “You were in Eden, the garden of God;
    Every precious stone was your covering:
    The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
    The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
    The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
    And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
    Was in you.
    On the day that you were created
    They were prepared.
    14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers,
    And I placed you there.
    You were on the holy mountain of God;
    You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
    15 “You were blameless in your ways

    From the day you were created
    Until unrighteousness was found in you.
    16 “By the abundance of your trade
    You were internally filled with violence,
    And you sinned;
    Therefore I have cast you as profane
    From the mountain of God.
    And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,

    From the midst of the stones of fire.
    17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
    You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
    I cast you to the ground;
    I put you before kings,
    That they may see you.
    18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
    In the unrighteousness of your trade
    You profaned your sanctuaries.
    Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
    It has consumed you,
    And I have turned you to ashes on the earth

    In the eyes of all who see you.
    19 “All who know you among the peoples
    Are appalled at you;
    You have become terrified
    And you will cease to be forever.”’”

    Rev 20
    7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

    Exek 18:4 "the soul that sin - it shall die"


    Until you read the actual Bible.

    Ezek 28 - reduced to ashes

    Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
    It has consumed you,
    And I have turned you to ashes on the earth

    In the eyes of all who see you.
    19 “All who know you among the peoples
    Are appalled at you;
    You have become terrified
    And you will cease to be forever.”’”

    Matthew 10:28 "DETROY both body and soul in fiery hell" as compared to those who merely "kill the body but unable to kill the soul".

    DESTROYED Sodom and Gomorrah
    -- Luke 17:29 in fire and brimstone.
    Destroyed by "reducing them to ashes" - 2 Peter 2:6 ... that city is gone.. buildings wiped out.
     
  17. BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The Bible says the city was destroyed - and no text says the city will be rebuilt.

    But all the wicked will be raised after the millennium and then "destroyed BOTH body and soul" Matthew 10:28

    The soul is in a dormant state until the resurrection - and when the judgment of fiery hell is executed in the Lake of Fire - the wicked are "destroyed BOTH body and soul" Matthew 10:28
     
  18. Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    We all make mistakes. Your previous assertion caught my attention and I had to check to ensure that I was not in error. I appreciate your gentle response.

    Exactly. That came from the mouth of Jesus!

    I don't know what SDAs teach about God's intent for humans to have eternal life, but it seems that the story of the tree of life in Genesis 3 was a picture of eternal life provided by God, since Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden so that they would not live forever in their fallen state. When they disobeyed God, they began the process of dying (the Hebrew says something along the lines of "dying you shall die"). In Adam, all of us die. So as children of Adam and Eve, we do not have eternal life in ourselves. But in Christ, we can all live. God will preserve who we are and we will be raised in resurrection bodies (Christ's was the first fruit - the guarantee of what God will do for us) and we will live in our bodies again, have free access to the Tree of Life and living water (Revelation 22:14, 17), and will reign with Christ forever (Revelation 22:5).

    Children of Adam and Eve who do not also enter into the life of Christ do not possess eternal life, nor live forever in any form.
     
  19. BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Well I have a pretty good idea of what they teach -- since I am currently SDA.

    True - Adam and Eve had access to the Tree of Life and hence to eternal life - but when they chose rebellion they were removed from the tree and God said "lest man eat from the tree of Life and live forever" mankind was kicked out of the Garden and two Angels were stationed there to guard the way against anyone of mankind returning.

    True. Aging and dying. But the "wages of sin is death" Romans 6 and it is more than the "first death" that all - even the righteous die... it is the second death - the lake of fire... fiery hell. And it is the second death from which Christ has saved us.

    Amen! Even so come Lord Jesus.


    True - as Paul reminds Timothy in 1 Tim 6 "God alone possess immortality".

    Even Satan will be "reduced to ashes" and "will cease to be forever" Ezek 28
     
  20. Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    Yes.

    I respectfully disagree. Although we can find a number of scriptures describing the state of believers who have experienced physical death as being asleep, that's not all the Bible teaches.

    When Jesus was refuting the Sadducees and their trick question regarding the resurrection, Jesus makes the point that when God talked to Moses out of the burning bush, Moses recognized that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - persons who had physically died many, many years before. Jesus declared, "He is not God of the dead, but of the living, because all are living in him." (Luke 20:38).

    If one claims that the dead are dormant, you undermine everything that Jesus has said about the subject. Moreover, Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus and the Three at the Transfiguration. I sincerely doubt they were raised for a two-minute chat and send back to their graves.