SDA's and the Sabbath

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GE:
I repeat, you are as blind as a mole and as happy in your darkness.

 

:tear: I give up!

 

Gen 2 -
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed[/b], and all their hosts.
2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.


Compare that to this part of God's Word

Ex 20
8 ""Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 "" Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
11 "" For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.


Pr-e-t-t-t-t-y interesting if you ask me! But then -- that's the Word of God for you.


Now -- lets go back and see again - how much D.L.Moody enjoyed this scripture as well...


http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=879278&postcount=59

Hmmph! Just when you thought you could blame Christ the Creator's Holy day on those "SDAs"

In Christ,

Bob

 

Quoting BR:
"Pr-e-t-t-t-t-y interesting if you ask me! But then -- that's the Word of God for you."

The Bible tells us two things: Not to answer the fool in his foolishness; to answer the fool in his foolishness. This time I shall again answer.

"... that's the Word of God for you" you said after having quoted a number of texts EVERYBODY knows by heart. Even the Jews and the DSAs know them, it is assumed and hoped. Now I dare deny squarely, that "that's the Word of God for you." And I put before you, for you to reject again as you have done up till now, or to accept, and go back to grade one in the school of faith and learn: that's the Word of God for you as long as it teaches Jesus Christ, who, exclusively of even the Law of God, is the Word of God for you.

 

Quoting:
"It does not say in the Bible that the resurrection of Christ has anything to do with the Sabbath, you are just making things up out of your imagination, which is no thing on which you ought to base your doctrine.

Claudia"

Nothing is said in the Bible about the Sabbath that has not got everything to do with the resurrection of Christ - especially about the Seventh Day Sabbath. Just use your imagination for once, dear Claudia; it is no thing which you ought to base your doctrine on, nevertheless if used in faith and obedience it might just convince you of the basis of all and everything Christian Faith is based on : The resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. Or it neither is Christian; nor Faith!

 

I will NOT give up; because the love of Christ constraineth me!

I shall fight for Christ's honour sometimes robbed from Him by the Law - or rather by the legalists - and bestowed upon the Sabbath, and sometimes robbed from Him by the other legalists who illegally bestow Christ's honour upon the First Day.

 

Quoting BR: "Hmmph! Just when you thought you could blame Christ the Creator's Holy day on those "SDAs""

GE:
Shame!
Nevertheless I'm not that stupid to blame Sunday "on those "SDAs". Bob Ryan cannot fathom it's not 'Christ the Creator's Holy day' Moody talks of. He fools himself it was!

 

Most people's ignorance of the sabbath is not because they think they're keeping it on Sunday because the church told them it was changed. That is an overgeneralization, and most people know the sabbath is different from Sunday. And they have heard your arguments. So does God still hold them innocent, then? (Especially when we disagree about what the Scriptures genuinely teach; not us just ignoring it because we don't feel like it.
The "ignorance" was before Christ, not now. If God commands all men to repent now, then how does He still "wink" at ignorance of the sabbath?

 

That's still not what was distinguished in THIS passage. Only "holy day" and "sabbath day".

That's the point that you have constantly missed in your consistent mischaracterization of our view. We do not believe we are "deliberately violating this commandment" either. We believe it is not commanded for now. So "violation" is completely impossible! In fact, we have more scripture in favor of our practice than does the Catholic who admits his idol, er- icons are not in scripture, but rather "oral tradition". They know the commandment is still in effect; they just believe that it is waived, basically, when God commands it for His worship, and this is supposed to be proven by God "using physical objects" in the OT such as the brass serpent or the cherubim in the Temple, and Jesus coming down in the flesh, and the communion. Don't you remember Orthodox and others elaborating this argument?
Another thing you keep saying is that idolatry commandment is not "repeated" in the NT "either", but we can see idolatry condemned all over the place there, so how do Catholics even have the same excuse?

Still, would you extend this logic to someone who does not know killing is wrong? Adultery? Stealing? Does God hold those people "innocent"? This would render the entire world innocent! The issue is not whether a person gets to Heaven. That is determined by a person's reception of Christ; not God deciding to look the other way at certain commandments being broken. All sin, and all must be excused by the method God prescribes; which is Christ. The issue is whether people are "in sin" for not keeping this law in question. You all seem to deny regarding non-Sabbath keeping Christians as being in the same state of "living in sin" as someone who fornicates or steals as a lifestyle and doesn't even think it is wrong.

If GOd tells us to observe the sabbath then, then of course we will. (and again, that command says nothing about abstaining from work sundown to sundown! GE is basically on the mark in his view of what the sabbath is about!) But the point here is, He obviously is not holding anyone culpable for it now!

 

Ex 20
8 ""Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 "" Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
11 "" For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.


Pr-e-t-t-t-t-y interesting if you ask me! But then -- that's the Word of God for you.



GE said "Now I dare deny squarely, that "that's the Word of God for you." "




If that is what you have to believe to stay out on that limb ...oh well.

 

You and DHK need to get together on that one.

DHK has been trying to point out that the reason that D.L.Moody and many in his generation were so good with keeping the Sabbath Commandment is that they thought it was on Sunday.

(amazing how many Christians are "tied to Sunday" and whether it is "Because that is now Sabbath" or "Sabbath is dead and this shows that it was nailed to the Cross" -- they simply want to avoid "Saturday" and keep "sunday" no matter what the excuse -- even if the arguments are 180 degrees in opposition -- if the outcome is "ignore Saturday" they seem to be happy). It is almost as if their rule is "spin any story you want as long as the outcome is to ignore Creation Sabbath on the actual day of Saturday"

Why go out of their way to deliberately violate the spoken Word of God on the topic of Creation and His Holy Memorial of it??

In Christ,

Bob

 

It is true that we have shamefully not come forth with a consistent answer to the issue of sabbathkeeping. The traditional answer has been "the Ten Commandments are still in force, but the fourth has been changed to Sunday". That is Moody's position, and was more popular in the past as DHK pointed out on the other thread. And it is flat wrong.
Seeing the error, others then claim "nine of the Ten commandments are kept, the fourth is abolished". But no scripture teaches anything like that. Others say "the whole law is done away", and often leave it at that, raising understandable accusations of "Lawlessness" or "antinomianism", and fueling the whole endtime speculation with such "iniquity" leading to "the mark of the Beast" and whatnot. Some say the law is done away, and "the New Testament reinstates nine of them" or "We just keep whichever one the New Testament says". This is somewhat closer to the truth, but is still not clearly outlined there. The distinction between the universal law and the Law of Moses is the best articulation of how we know which laws we are to keep.

 

That was a good post Eric. Often it is left to Sabbath-keeping Christians to point out those various approaches - "as if" nobody else dares to admit that the elephant is actually standing there in the living room lest they be convicted by the problem.

But take a look at your list - they all have one thing in common even though they contradict each other -- they seek to find a way out of "Saturday" even if they do not find a way out of the 4th commandment.

That is "instructive". It is as if the VERY DAY that Christ selected is to be "avoided at all costs - no matter what the excuse". And when you have two groups like D.L Moody Sabbath IN FORCE "but editable" vs "God's LAW ABOLISHED" they seldom address the other's point when the subject of Sabbath keeping comes up.

That is why I like D.L. Moody's argument for he DOES address the other side saying that "some claim the law is abolished" and then D.L. Moody shows that this law REMAINS - particularly the Creation-week 7th-day Sabbath from the Creation of Adam onward.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=879278&postcount=59


In Christ,

Bob

 

James says "He who breaks one -- breaks them all" and your response is "IF that is true then why would we all not be guilty when we delberately violate God's 4th commandment thinking we do God service by violating His Holy day given to mankind as a memorial of His creative act in Gen 1-2:3".

Kind of an interesting argument on your part.

You are saying "why doesn't God hold us accountable for breaking this Law" - and "We do not believe we are breaking it since we do not believe it is still in force".

I point out that the Catholic Church could argue the same thing for image worship - but that does not make image worship right.

In other words the logic - the foundational argument you are making did not work for the RCC - and it is not working for you any better.

Your response is that you think you have more Bible texts in favor of your position than they do - but that does not change the basic point because they would also argue why they believe some Bible texts allow them to make "edits" as they will.

They have texts for "whatever you bind -- whatever you loose" to claim they have been given "editing rights" over the Law of God. A bogus use of scripture to be sure - but no worse than the "commandments of God are dead" abuse employed by others EVEN WHILE they admit "Here is the patience of the saints who... keep the commandments of God" Rev 12.

I was simply taking the time to address the kind of argument you were making.

I point out that it is not "quoted" -- often when you see part of the 4th commandment QUOTED in the NT (as in Rev 14 and in Acts) you see the complaint "yes but ALL of it was not quoted verbatim so whatever is not fully repeated is deleted".

My point is that the law about Images AND the Law about taking God's name in vain are not quoted "verbatim" in the NT.

I do not think the RCC is innocent when it comes to image worship. But I think that Christ accepts Christians from that group and covers their sin - even sins of ignorance. I think He leads them to conviction on that point - if they should live that long.

I do not think that God holds people who have had abortions innocent - but I think that Christ accepts the Christians in that group that truly accept salvation - and will lead them to conviction eventually if they live that long.

I think God leads people who believe it is ok to violate the 4th commandment - also to conviction over time - if they should live that long.

"God convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16.


in Christ,

Bob

 

BR:
"GE said "Now I dare deny squarely, that "that's the Word of God for you." "
If that is what you have to believe to stay out on that limb ...oh well."

GE:
I have less than 5 minutes:

Just shows what liar you are - lying about what I have said, just as lying about what the Word of God is and what it says about the Sabbath; as you lie about what Moody says ....
In a word: You are a liar! And i don't converse with liars

 

Gerhard Ebersoehn,


re: "I give up!"

re: "I will NOT give up ..."


Say, are you really John Kerry in disguise?

 

So then the Catholics admittedly are not going by scripture, and our argument is not the same as ours. We do not claim "yes, that is still a commandment, but God has granted us the 'binding' authority to supersede it in this case".

That's NOT a QUOTE! You see the same group of words that are universal (God is creator of the heaven and the earth and the sea) and turn it into some kind of direct reference that just is not there. In order for it to be a reference to the sabbath, the sabbath itself should be mentioned. Not "some of the same words used in the commandment". If we're supposed to know just from that that God still expects sabbathkeeping, and in fact, that it will be the central issue of the endtimes as this passage is taken to imply, the God then is playing riddles with us. Anything that important, he is clearly spells out.

No one said they were, or had to be. But you do see references to idolatry and blasphemy, and they are taken for granted as wrong, and mentioned in a negative condemnatory fashion. We never see the same for "sabbathbreaking". This plus the scriptures saying not to judge over days (and other laws distinctively associated with Moses) strongly suggests it is no longer binding. The Catholics have nowhere near this much support for their practices, but admittedly must directly supplement scripture with"tradition".

But you all said God does hold people innocent for sabbathbreaking NOW, (until it becomes the mark of the beast, according to further SDA teaching). You still couldn't even bring yourself to say "I don't think God holds sabbathbreakers innocent" as you just did with abortion and RCC. Instead, you speak of some slow "conviction"--"eventually if they live that long". But people can be immediately convicted of abortion and idolatry upon reading NewTestament teaching, and in the case of abortion, naturally, except for nonbelievers who have hardened their hearts.

God convicts the world of sin and righteousness and commands all men to repent NOW, not in the Tribulation, not sometime by the end of their lives. And the world, apart from those indoctrinated by sabbatarian teaching (as I once was) is not convicted on the sabbath. It was never even an issue of question or improper keeeping in the NT!

 

And so clearly was see the words of Christ upheld as HE says "scripture can not be broken".

The same principle is applied to all.

I am not sure what you are saying - I would never argue that all people bowing before images are innocent just because they still do it.

I would never argue that people that choose to have an abortion are innocent just because they choose to do it any way.

I would never argue that people that choose to break the Sabbath are innocient - just because they do it anyway.

Choosing to break God's law "anyway" is not a way to be innocent.

I simply make the case that in those groups there ARE those who are not yet convicted on those points. "To him who knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin"

Period.

The same is true with the Sabbath - this happens each day and is happening right now at a church here in N Atlanta.

You need to actually read John 16 because the same chapter saying that God does convict the World ALSO says "I have MANY more things to tell you but you can not bear them now".

Your idea that we get fire-hosed by God with all-truth in one instant is never taught in all of scripture.

In Christ,

Bob

 

GE:
Talk Scripture, then I would know what to answer you on; I know nothing of John Kerry or politics or America for that matter. I gave up to get anything into some SDAs' heads; I never give up to stand for the Scriptures. That's my flat Boer-style from South Africa. Born, bread like that and will die like that; won't apologise for it neither.

 

OK. But it was Claudia that said that God holds us innocent.

So it's not sin for us. OK.
Still, can someone murder and steal and not be guilty of sin because "they don't know it's wrong?" Why would you even say that you would not argue abortionists and idolaters as being innocent, then, of they don't know it's wrong? If they don't know it is not doing right, to them it is not sin.

What is that, a whole church that became convinced of your position? Being 'convinced' by arguments is one thing; being convicted by the Spirit is quite another.

So what does that mean? Is this an admission that God did not really reveal it in the Gospels or the rest of the NT, but that it is further revelation? This is the same thing the Catholics/Orthodox claim regarding "tradition". Just like when you say they must have known the sabbath was mandatory because the Bible is not an exhaustive manual. That's just what the Catholics say, and it is basically an oral tradition, then.