1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

SDA's and the Sabbath

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Inquiring Mind, Oct 9, 2006.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    3,458
    Likes Received:
    0
    Eric,

    I meant that a person is innocent if they are unaware of what they are doing. Thats why the book of Acts says that God "winks at sin".

    Acts:17:30: And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Quote:

    "To him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin"

    This means that between God and that person - the conviction of the Holy Spirit determines if their sin - is a known sin or an unknown one - but it does not 'make abortion right' - nor make "idolatry right" nor make "Sabbath breaking right" in any case.

    Or at least for some...

    Like in the case of murder and abortion? I thought we just covered that.

    Because murder is wrong even when the one doing it is not fully convicted of what they are doing. Simply doing the sin does not make it right - and doing it in ignorance does not make it right either. Yet I do not think that God would hold a Catholic out of heaven simply because they worshiped before images or worshipped a piece of bread as though it were God - if they truly did it without knowing their error.

    Does that mean I think it is right to worship bread???

    No!

    Agreed. Worshipping the bread, image worship, abortion, and yes
    "Sabbath breaking" are all treated the same way on this point.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    How in the world can you imagine that Christ speaking to his own jewish disciples pre-cross had "UNREVEALED" the FULLY revealed Sabbath?

    I don't follow your argument at all there.

    As for Christ presenting MORE truth to them as He claimed He would since they were NOT prepared for the truth AS He said they were NOT -- I going to have to go out on a limb and just believe Christ on this one.


    If you can talk yourself into believing that the Word of God can be "downgraded" to the level of "oral tradition" that is your issue to deal with -- for me it is the Word of God.

    When God SAYS "If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" I gotta believe it was accepted as something BETTER than "oral tradition" by the children of God in that day.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Quote:
    The same is true with the Sabbath - this happens each day and is happening right now at a church here in N Atlanta.
    A "church full of people" in this case - non-SDAs attending meetings in a church - filling up the church and hearing about what God's Word says on the subject of Christ the Creator's Holy Day - given as a memorial of His own creative act - in Gen 2:3 long before the context for sin, Jews and Salvation was established.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 26, 2001
    Messages:
    4,838
    Likes Received:
    5
    That is referring to the time BEFORE Acts, under the Old Covenant, when God was dealing with Israel only, and not the Gentiles, who were steeped in pagan worship and other sins such as murder, sexual perversion, etc. What this is saying was that God was now reaching all men with the truth, which says we must repent. It doesn't say there was no conviction of sin before then, or that all were held innocent. And this does not even have anything to do with us, as we are well into the period where God has been commanding all to repent. You can't use that verse to say that people are sinning by not keeping the sabbath, only he holds them innocent until the three angels' message, or whatever, and then commands them to repent of it!
     
  6. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 26, 2001
    Messages:
    4,838
    Likes Received:
    5
    I know that. But while a person may ignore his conviction when murdering (especially in the heat of rage), you can not still say they were never convicted about it. Unless their consciences were completely seared with a hot iron, which had to begin sometime with continued ignoring of conviction. Even with abortion, studies have shown that something in the women knows it's not right.
    Again, you change the subect to Heaven. God only shuts people out who die without having their sins covered by the blood of Christ. Who gets to heaven is not what determines which acts of theirs were sin.
    No, they're not treated the same in the NT. "Sabbathbreaking" is not "treated" at all in the NT.

    Well, you're the one who speaks of more truth being revealed by the Spirit. Why would it have to be revealed if it was already revealed, then? What was yet to be revealed was NT practice, once Christ died, and the NT began.
    See what I mean? What "more truth"?
    I'm not the one downgrading the Word of God to tradition. But if you claim that "My commandments" there includes the sabbath, then THAT is "oral tradition", because the apostles never once wrote it in the books we have preserved.

    That is still being intellectually persuaded by a group's interpretation of scripture, and not naturally convicted by the Spirit, as with a person committing murder.
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    So many points are being side stepped in that response it is difficult to know which one to untangle first.

    #1. BEFORE the Cros "God was UNCHANGING" just as He is after it.

    #2. BEFORE the Cross "GOD SO Loved the WORLD that He gave..." yes really.

    #3. BEFORE the Cross there was only ONE GOSPEL - just as AFTER the cross.

    #4. The UNCHANGING fact of God is that He overlooks those times of ignorance and continues to CONVICT ALL - calling ALL to repentance going forward. This was true of Ninevah in Jonah's day - it is true still - today.

    #5. The Old Covenant is STILL in force today - "obey and live" JUST as it was in the Old Testament. It was NEVER the means of salvation for anyone!! No Law had ever been given that was able to grant salvation for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.

    These are basic obvious truths of scripture available to all.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Like in the case of murder and abortion? I thought we just covered that.

    You know as in "abortion IS murder"??? (This seems to be taking a while to get the point through)

    Murder is wrong - still wrong - still sin even if you don't think abortion is murder. But the PERSON may not be aware of it.

    Because murder is wrong even when the one doing it is not fully convicted of what they are doing. Simply doing the sin does not make it right - and doing it in ignorance does not make it right either

    If you have to tell yourself that all women think they are committing murder when they have abortions -- have at it.

    My statement remains - murder is wrong - abortion is murder and there are many who do not know it -- yes even to this very day.

    When Christians learn for the first time that "The Sabbath was MADE for mankind" in Gen 2:3 many are surprised. When they learn that it is the ONLY day in scripture identified as the Lord's day (Is 58 and Mark 2:28) they are often very surprised. When they learn that from Sabbath to Sabbath ALL MANIND will be coming before God to worship in the New Earth (Isaiah 66) they are often very very surprised. Their conscience is working overtime usually when that happens. And in the case of millions - it results in an acceptance of Christ the Creator's own memorial of Creation - the day He said He made "Holy" in Gen 2:3.

    Those facts do not change simply because a person decides to "Ignore Christ the Creator's Holy day anyway".

    For millions of others - it has already resulted in a change of their practice when they worship God.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #88 BobRyan, Oct 28, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 28, 2006
  9. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,723
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bob clear your messages so I can send you a pm
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Same subject - same point.

    When a person comes to God they do not have the option of saying "God I really need to sin - I just want to be saved anyway". The only way to God is COMPLETE surrender. The one who says "I want to continue in adultery I JUST want to ALSO go to heaven" is not saved - at all!

    The one who says I want to continue in idolatry or the worship of false gods - but I also want to go to heaven "anyway" IS not saved -- at all!

    Paul makes this point clear in 1Cor 6 starting with words "BE NOT DECEIVED..." then he gives a list of sins and makes the point that those who CHOSE to cling to sin and then claim salvation "anyway" are in fact deceived.

    In 1John 2 John makes the same point saying that they who CLAIM to know Christ should WALK as Christ walked - in obedience to God - if they do not - John says they are liars.

    John 15[/b]
    10 "" If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love[/b]; just as I have kept My Father's commandments[/b] and abide in His love.


    And here John shows us that the saints are still to keep the commandments of God AFTER the resurrection of Christ!


    1 John 2
    1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
    2 and He Himself is the propitiation
    for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
    3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if
    we keep His commandments.[/b]
    4 The one who says, "" I have come to know Him,'' and [b]
    does not keep His commandments, is a liar[/b], and the truth is not in him;

    5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
    6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.[/b]



    1 John 3
    21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God;
    22 and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
    23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
    24 The one who [b
    ]keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him
    . We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.





    1 John 5

    Overcoming the World


    2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
    3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. [/quote]


    Is it any surprise that Paul is in full agreement with John on this post-cross requirement to ”keep the commandments of God”?


    1 Cor 7
    19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but [b]what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    As for Christ presenting MORE truth to them as He claimed He would since they were NOT prepared for the truth AS He said they were NOT -- I going to have to go out on a limb and just believe Christ on this one.

    Hint: There was no "Secret" from Jews pre-cross in John 16 that God's Holy Creation Memorial "existed".

    That was not the NEWs the disciples were still missing.

    But the extent to which the gentiles were fellow heirs of the kingdom - was news to them.

    The fact that the Messiah was to die a substitutionary atoning death for the world - was "news to them". Many other things were news to them as well (including the 1000 years mentioned in Rev 20 and not anywhere else in the bible apparently).

    IN Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    ]

    #1. Every child knows that the SCRIPTURES read and used "sola scriptura" to teach doctrine in the NT was the OT.

    #2. Every child knows that those scriptures CLEARLY teach that we are not to take God's name in vain -- EVEN though there is no verbatim REPEAT of that commandment in the NT.

    #3. Every Child knows that those scriptures ALSO teach Christ the Creator's own memorial of Creation MADE holy in Gen 2:3 and they can SEE IT being quoted when they read Rev 14 and referenced when they read Heb 4 and Mark 2:27-28 etc.

    Pretending that the disciples lost/burned/ignored those scriptures in the NT and had no clue as to what they taught other than oral tradition - is pure nonsense.

    Again - I am simply stating the glaringly obvious.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    I agree that "guessing what is in the Bible" is not the right way to find out what God's Word says. You have to actually read it.

    But I do not agree that the Holy Spirit stays away from you until you do.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 26, 2001
    Messages:
    4,838
    Likes Received:
    5
    So God is unchanging and deals with us the same way He always has (and the OC still in effect!:eek: ) So then what does the verse in Acts mean then, if God is doing everything the same? Why would He overlook those times of ignorance? If He does not overlook ignorance now and expects us to repent; He must not have overlooked i then! You have just made the scripture meaningless!
    No, they TELL themselves it is not wrong; but deep down inside, there is or was) a nagging conscience. People "hold the truth in unrighteousness". That's why all without Christ are held accountable. Else, Armstron'g doctrine of all not being called now would be true, and God would be unjust to condemn anyone.
    That is still intellectual persuasion (from scriptures being interpreted according to a sectarian view) not a natural conviction.
    So then Catholic idolaters and sabbathbreakers should all be barred from Heaven then. This contradicts whay you've been saying.
    Spo if you're saying the sabbath is one of those "new truths" for the Gentiles; we don't see it taught to them in the NT like idolatry, sexual perversion, etc were condemned. So if it still was taught, it was oral tradition, like the way the Catholics claim Real Substance and Infant Baptism were.
    And they were not to do everything written in the OT. The issue came up several times.
    "Blasphemy" is written against in the NT. This is a ridiculous claim of yours tthat it is not mentioned.
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    On the contrary - it shows that God is STILL overlooking past sins rather than raining down fire and is STILL calling ALL to repentance because HE STILL sends His Spirit to convict the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment.

    What is not to get?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Yet they would deny they hear it --

    But even so "God convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment"

    So murder, Sabbath-breaking, Image worship -- "he who breaks one breaks them all" is sin and the Spirit convicts - yet people will deny it.

    Even so - some levels of conviction are more apparent to the person than others. Some Catholics become vERY convicted on the subjet of idolatry in the bread and image worship and leave - others stay. But there are the saved both inside and outside of the RCC.

    Even though they would deny all the while that their sin is in fact sin.

    The point remains.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Bob said -

    Same subject - same point.

    When a person comes to God they do not have the option of saying "God I really need to sin - I just want to be saved anyway". The only way to God is COMPLETE surrender. The one who says "I want to continue in adultery I JUST want to ALSO go to heaven" is not saved - at all!

    The one who says I want to continue in idolatry or the worship of false gods - but I also want to go to heaven "anyway" IS not saved -- at all!

    Paul makes this point clear in 1Cor 6 starting with words "BE NOT DECEIVED..." then he gives a list of sins and makes the point that those who CHOSE to cling to sin and then claim salvation "anyway" are in fact deceived.

    In 1John 2 John makes the same point saying that they who CLAIM to know Christ should WALK as Christ walked - in obedience to God - if they do not - John says they are liars.


    I have always said "to the one that KNOWS to do right and does it not to HIM it is sin".

    When the RC person is fully convicted on bread-worship as idolatry and then says "YES but I want to stay with the RCC anyway - I don't care if this is idolatry" they are revoking their own choice to follow Christ.

    Christ said "I AM The way THE TRUTH and the life" Christ calls Peter "SATAN" when HE chooses to REJECT truth - newly convicted truth.

    I just don't see how this point is so hard for you Eric.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Bob said
    Hint: There was no "Secret" from Jews pre-cross in John 16 that God's Holy Creation Memorial "existed".

    That was not the NEWs the disciples were still missing.

    But the extent to which the gentiles were fellow heirs of the kingdom - was news to them.

    The fact that the Messiah was to die a substitutionary atoning death for the world - was "news to them". Many other things were news to them as well (including the 1000 years mentioned in Rev 20 and not anywhere else in the bible apparently).


    Wrong.

    In acts 13 we SEE gentiles in church "sabbath after Sabbath".

    In Acts 18 we see it again.

    In Acts 15 we see that the issue of doctrine for Gentiles is being sovled by the fact that they are hearing the OT preached "every Sabbath" in the synagogue JUST AS WE SAW in Acts 13!!

    There is no "Love your neighbor as yourself" in Acts 15 nor even "Love God with all your heart". That is NOT A SIGN that the OT was burned and they could only read Acts 15 to get doctrine for gentiles!!

    Totally false.

    Their SCRIPTURE as we see in Acts 17 AND in 2Tim 3:16-17 IS THE OT!!!

    Inventing the notion that "scripture was burned and all they had was oral tradition until Paul wrote a letter" is purely "making stuff up"!!

    How in the world you can be satisfied with that approach is beyond me.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    This is the real problem you are having Eric. You have no idea how the Gentiles could have the reverence and respect for "scripture" that we see being proclaimed in 2Tim 3:16-17 WHILE they were being asked to "IGNORE SCRIPTURE".

    But your error is in thinking that they WERE being asked to "IGNORE SCRIPTURE" and that this was the rule for NT saints.

    Your approach is a total rejection of "sola scriptura" at this point.

    you don't know of any good way to "get out of the OT" without tossing it out the window so you assume that when something is IN SCRIPTURE for them IN THE OT that STILL they must be accepting it as "ORAL TRADITION" instead of "READ FROM SCRIPTURE" since they are being taught to REJECT the OT scripture in your view.

    How far out on that limb are you willing to climb Eric?

    What if "ALL SCRIPTURE" really means "ALL SCRIPTURE" in 2Tim 3:16-17!!

    Why do you go to such lengths to reject this truth of the NT???

    In the OT Gentiles were NOT required to become Jews or to be circumcised - in Acts 15 this point is REPEATED.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    #2. Every child knows that those scriptures CLEARLY teach that we are not to take God's name in vain -- EVEN though there is no verbatim REPEAT of that commandment in the NT.

    The Sabbath is ALSO "MENTINED" in the NT without a full quote. But MORE OF IT is DIRECTLY quoted than we see with the 3rd commandment which has NO QUOTE AT ALL in the NT.

    You simply "make stuff up" to defend your point and then complain that what your make up does not hold water.

    You invent a rule "whatever is not repeated in deleted" in the NT then complain that such a rule has never worked in all of scripture - not in the OT and not in the NT.

    You complain that althought Sabbath IS mentioned in the NT and even parts of the command QUOTED in the NT and the disciples are SEEN to OBSERVE it "resting on the Sabbath day ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT" as the Gospels say - you still reject it. But NEVER do we see the the third commandment QUOTED nor "According to the commandment" specifically given to select out compliance to that ONE commandment - and yet you admit it REMAINS.

    Your made up rules are simply not working for you Eric.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...