See Men Shredded, Then say you don't back the War

Evidently it doesn't inspire you to want to stop Saddam either.

 

Wrong. Two very different things. "Stopping Saddam" and "stopping the spiral of violence" are not mutually exclusive.


Oh, drat. Thanks for the indirect reminder! I owe someone a thread about pacifism!

 

Would you mind explaining to me how one could stop Saddam short of violence?

 

this is a really interesting comment and it goes to the heart of the debate about Iraq and what we should do.

The United States is not the 'good guy' against all the 'bad guys' - the United states has one real interest - continuation of its own power. To ensure that the US will support anyone that it feels is in line with that interest.

For example the US has often supported and armed brutal dictators - Hussain is one example. The US has also supported terrorists - Bin Laden is one example, the Contra rebels are another. The United States has subverted and assisted in the overthrow of democratically elected governments that they feel are a threat to their interests - Allende in Chile is an example.

I agree that Hussain is a monster - but to hear American policians argue that they are fighting for freedom and democracy is ridiculous - they are fighting to ensure that the US remains the worlds pre-eminante world power - for example Kuwait is not and was not a democracy, why did America go to war for 'freedom' to defend an unelected government?

These are not side issues - these are the reasons that this war is being fought - I pray that the United States takes a stand for human rights and democracy, I wish with all my heart that they would but it is clearly not the case.

I would love to be proved wrong but the fact is that the United States (and others) continue to supply weapons and aid to repressive regimes, the United States continues to fund the training of terrorists and torturers - we can only pray that the blowback from this will not be another 9/11.

 

So it is your position that the US is evil too.

Do you believe that the US is just as evil as Saddam?

 

not too sure where you got that from - I don;t think that at all.

I think that Americam foreign policy is pragmatic - would you not agree? I think that those implementing American foreign policy seek to ensure that America remain the worlds formost power - do you disagree?

Looking back on the past 50 years of US foreign policy it certainly does not appear to be driven by a desire to expand freedom and democracy - am I wrong here? could you provide a different interpretation to my own?

 

I agree that US foreign policy is to look out for the best interests of the US. These interests usually coinsided with the rest of the Western World in respect to the East. These iterests did not coinside with humanitarian issues.

Many times the US helped rats to fight snakes, then helped snakes to fight rats. These were short sighted measures at the very best.

But as someone once told me, even a broke clock is right twice a day.

In this case, it just so happens that what is in the national interest just so happens to coinside with humantarian interests. Therefore I don't see where the problem is. I think most people agree that taking Saddam out is the best thing. More importantly, we need to worried about setting up a 'good' government to replace Saddam after the war is over. Otherwise this entire enterprise will be for nothing.

It is about time we start trying to take out both the rats and the snakes and replacing them with decent governments. Exactly how we can ensure this without setting up what would appear to be puppet states, I don't know. I hope all of the Arab world isn't as screwed up as Afghanistan.

 

The point to this thread is stopping the acts that are going on in Iraq. Not things that have happened, buit things that are currently going on.

The issue here is absolutley sickening, The only answer that seems obvious is regime change. Which would appear possible only by war. Scince the end of the Gulf war the United Nations has had ample time to physically do something about this situation, which they are well aware of.

People are saying that there are other ways than war. I think everyone involved would prefer another option than a war to solve this. Yet Sanctions have not worked. People are being Murdered, Raped, Tortured under a brutal regime in which they have no way of fighting back. It was reported in our paper The Advertiser that women in Iraq are pleading for a war to happen so they can be free.

Nobody wants a war, but in order to stop the war that is comming, We need real answers, answers that will solve the problems. All very well to say No War, but give us a real alternative that will set people free. Not simply opinions with no action.