self-esteem

Meek, humble and not proud are how I read we should be. i don't know how this fits into self-esteem except to say honor self, but don't overly honor self. There is a thin line that must be observed.

I don’t believe humble includes having no self worth but we certainly know it means not being overly self-focused or self-centered. I see it as a balance. One must love self sufficiently before they can love others adequately. I believe that’s what Jesus meant by Love thy neighbor as thyself. You must love self or you have not the ability to love your neighbor.

However the balance is necessary or one can misdirect their love exclusively toward themselves and material pleasures to the point where there is no or little love left to direct toward others. At this point we see a person become morally corrupt to the point described in 2Tim 3:2-5;

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

We don't want this extreme either. So where I agree with a lot of responses here I do believe everything is done in moderation...

If you can't love self then don't try and love me.

 

Does this make Prince Joe "The Artist Formerly Known as Joe"?

 

self esteem

It is very easy for a new believer to forget what has happened at salvation. I hope you take the time to read these wonderful words. May it be as much a blessing for you to read them as it was for me to type them. :godisgood:

Col 2:10 "ye are complete in him"
2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ
2:12 "ye are risen with him"
2:13 "forgiven you all trespasses"

Paul tells us we need to walk the same way we were saved; by faith.
2:6 "As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him"

Because it is so hard to walk by faith we turn to things we can see and do.
Col 3:2 "Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth."

The Colossians were turning to different things they could "see".
Col 2:8 "philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world"

They wanted to do something and had forgotten what Christ had done. Paul needed to remind them what Christ had done:
2:14 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

This is going on today, I know because I went through it. One of the things that Paul exposes is the anti-self esteem mentality that says we are a bunch of wretched worms and had better remember it.

Col 2:23 "Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."

Esteeming self is obviously wrong. Seeing that this self is "esteemed" because of Christ isn't.
Col 3:3 your life is hid with Christ in God.
1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Col 1:9 "For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; 12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light"

 

I agree with these statements. So then I have to say, why even use the term "self esteem" if it cause so much fuss among good Christians?

First of all, the term comes from secular psychology, not from the Bible or theology or from any type of Christianity. The inventor of the term was William James in 1890, certainly no Christian psychologist. The popularizer of the term was Abraham Maslow. He defined it in terms of needs, and thus kicked off the modern trend to define everything in terms of what I need, not what is right or good. As a linguist I am acutely aware of how American society has changed in this respect. When I was young, people would say, "Will you please...." Now they say, "I need you to...."

Then came the Christian psychologists with the integrationist model. Their idea was, let's take everything good from the Bible and add everything good from secular psychology, and then we'll have a good model for counseling. Gary Collins called this "spoiling the Egyptians" in his books. They included the secular version of self esteem in their model, and that is how the term got into Christianity at large.

That is also why you guys on this thread are using the term and then going to the Bible for your methodology. You are good Christian folk who want to do right and live by the Word of God, but you also want to help folks with their problems. That's wonderful, but why use the world's term to do it with? You redefine the term "self esteem" with Christian concepts and images, but then what does that communicate to the world?

Even worse, sometimes Christians even use the world's methods and "wisdom". In Introduction to Psychology an Counseling, the college textbook by Christians Paul Meier, Frank Minirth and Frank Wichern, they say, "Although it is unhealthy to depend entirely on others for our self image, it is healthy to evaluate how we are doing by noting the fedback we get from others. Love from at least one other individual is of utmost importance to our self-image" (p. 281). While there is much that is good in this book, this kind of advice hinders revival and a close walk with God. If we are paying attention to what others say about us instead of staying on our knees before God every day, I believe our spiritual growth is hindered, not helped. I have had people call me a hero simply because I'm a missionary. Good grief, if I paid attention to that kind of talk I'd be a spiritual mess!

 

Alas, Ed, I fear I must disagree with you twice on one thread (a rare occurance.) The Greek word here is philautos, and it only occurs in this one place in the NT, so it is difficult to learn how it is used. However, its etymology helps. It is a compound word from philos (love) and autos (self). So from the etymology it literally means "self-lover." I don't have time right now to do more research, but the KJV, NKJV, NIV and ESV all translate it this way.

 

Some seem to be saying that self-esteem is something dirty.

A man who will not provide for his family is worse than an infidel, and hath already denied the faith.

Now, to be able to provide for your family you must have self-esteem. why did all you folks go to college for? Why do you wear nice clothes for? Why do you treat others with respect, it is more for you than them? I think, some are trying to use self-esteem as putting ourselves above everyone else, or even making ourselves a God. Well if thats the case then it is wrong, but I do not think that is what self-esteem is. I think it plays a great part in who and what you are and how you can provide for your family. In other words, makes you a more Christian person, than less.

I think LeBuick, hit it on the head with the following scripture, which plainly says you are not to look upon yourself as dung.

Jam 2:8If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

Pretty well says it all, doesn't it? I guess I have said enough on this subject.

BBob,

 

LeBuick: //We don't want this extreme either. So where
I agree with a lot of responses here I do believe
everything is done in moderation ... //

Amen, Brother LeBuick - Preach it! :thumbs:

But I still wonder if even moderation can be done
to excess?

 

We all agree that we love ourselves. We're born with it, and it's natural. And we can cite Scripture for it

Here are some random, unconnected thoughts about it:

Let's not confuse self-esteem with self-image, which is actually a healthy and realistic view of who and what we are.

Sometimes, people with low self-esteem deserve it. They are scum and they know it. To tell them they're good is to lie to them. And we ought not to shield them from their scumbagginess.

When people, especially kids, are told they're worthless, will never amount to anything, etc., (follow me here), their unhappiness is not low self-esteem. They are unhappy precisely because they actually have self-esteem. They are reacting to someone else's low esteem of them, not their own.

Sometimes they are unhappy because they know they are not living up to their own love of themselves. They know they did not measure up to their potential and don't like it. They shouldn't like it. This sounds perverse, but those who supposedly have low self-esteem should actually be happy when they don't measure up.

Outside a context of Christian understanding, the handling of the self-esteem subject is outright dangerous. It has contributed to to such things as outcome-based sports. Don't keep score, losing might scar them and damage their fragile self-esteem. Don't give grades, just pass-fail. How about speech codes? There is no right or wrong, just differences. Recently, I read about a school which abolished valedictorians. The poor tender kids who didn't win might be traumatized. Oh, and the Baptist Hymnal (1991) has changed the words in the second verse of "Alas and Did My Savior Bleed." It used to read, "Would he devote that sacred heard to such a worm as I" Now it reads "....for sinners such as I." You can add some others, I'm sure.

Now, we should praise good behavor, we should honor excellence and we should console those who lose. But let's don't lie to them. And let's not worry about their self-esteem. Remember, children will have to face the real world sooner or later, and they will be miserable--and make everybody around them miserable.

 

This sounds wacky

 

From Jeremiah Burroughs book "The Rare Jewel of Christian Contentment".

Link here:
http://www.housechurch.org/spirituality/burroughs_jewell.html

Christian growth ALWAYS makes a person think less of self, and more of Christ.

Those who want to esteem themselves highly by figuring out exactly what worth they have, have simply taken their eyes off Christ. Why would I even want to try find value in a pile of dung, when I can look at the infinite value of Christ.

I'm dung, Christ is not, all esteem (value, honour, merit etc.) is to be for Him alone.


BGTF

 

self esteem

ByGracethroughFaith
"I'm dung, Christ is not, all esteem (value, honour, merit etc.) is to be for Him alone."

I agree that Christ should get all the honour but we are not dung, our works of righteousness according to the law are.

Phil 3:7" But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith"

To many people only give honour to Christ for the ticket they get to heaven. That is actually a mindset focused on self.
Christ also gets the honor because now we can DO righteousness!:jesus:

Rom. 6: yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God

Rom 12:1 "present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God"

A lot of people will say it is not me really doing it, but Christ who is in me. There is some truth in that but my members and my body are me. That is not self esteem in the psycho-babble sense. It is seeing our incredible value to God and others because we are servants of Christ. If we do our righteous deeds as menpleasers we are glorifying self and become guilty of what a lot of the secular self esteem movement is all about.

Col 3:23 "And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; 24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ."

Rom. 6:11 "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Matt. 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.:godisgood:

 

Brother Bob, you do bring up an important point here. When you and I were young, before self esteem became a popular term, we used the term self confidence. Now this word is not in the Bible either, but everyone knows what it means, and no one objects to it. We are self confident if we can do something well. Self confidence is based on accomplishment, and I don't think that's bad.

If I play baseball well (actually I don't), then I would be lying to be falsely humble when my turn comes to bat and say, "Team, I don't think I can handle this, but I'll give it my best shot. If the Lord wills, maybe I can eke out a hit, but I'm not sure." No, a good ball player with self confidence says, "I'll do my best. I can handle this type of situation. I've done it before."

Self esteem as practiced and taught in the secular world is different. We've all heard the stories of elementary schools that won't allow any losing and winning, but gives out medals to every player, no matter how well or badly they did. Why do they do this? They don't want to "damage the kids' self esteem." Surely we all oppose such nonsense. So then as Christians why even use the term "self esteem", spawned as it was out of the likes of lost, humanistic psychologists like Abraham Maslow and Carl Rogers?

 

I agree Bro JoJ;
We have changed the term used. I just don't agree with the reasoning that we should look down on ourselves. I sure don't believe in walking around with our noses so high, if it rains, it will drown us. I just think we should be thankful for what we have and give God praise for it.

In the case of the school children. No, I think we should give praise and honor where it is earned. But I put an emphasis on the word "earned". Now again, because we have earned something, we should not let pride wiggle its way in to our thinking and lives where we say "look what I done". We should be meek and humble, (hard for me to get that word humble out..... ) .

As far as using scripture, again I think "love thy neighbour as thyself" tells it like God wants us to think of it. I think LeBuick hit it right on the head.

The seculiar world is different. We have to praise children when doing good and lift them up. Can you remember as a Child, thinking from time to time, you just "don't have it" and have let your parents down, I can. I can just see a child sitting in a classroom, and will hardly raise its head, and almost never will look another in the eyes. Most likely that child will go through life accepting the bottom of the barrel. But, if someone will praise that child and teach it that it is making a contribution, just maybe that child will begin to look at life different.

Hope I haven't confused the matter more than explain it.

BBob,

 

I am nought but dung, and it is most joyful to know that.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing....

Job 40:4 Behold, I am vile.....

Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

I agree with your first two sentences, and violently disagree with the 'we' in your third.

WE can't do righteousness of ourselves and can make no claim to it. Romans 7:15-25

Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good , no, not one.

ONLY Christ in us can do true righteousness. All commands for us towards righteousness are commands towards total submission to, and dependency on, Christ.

Whatevever good I seem to do cannot be attributed to me, it is only through the operation of the Spirit of Christ in me that any good can be done. ALL the Glory is His.

Rom 8:9-11 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ , he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

1 Sam 2:30 ...now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed .

James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

There isn't room for esteem of both self and God, in the heart of man. God tells us that all esteeming is purely up to His infallible judgment, so we are to leave it to Him.


BGTF

Late Edit:

I also recommend Andrew Murray's short book titled 'Humility', which addresses much of this subject.

http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/murray/5f00.0565/5f00.0565.c.htm

 

I think I indeed gave you the answer to your question they way you asked it.

BBob,

 

I do agree with JoJ that the word self-esteem is not biblical, perhaps we can draw good analogy from this passage of text or maybe there are better words to describe the text in red.

Lk 18:9 (KJV) And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Gekko, I hope I am within your definition.

 

I think it was Robert Schuller who described sin as a lack of self-esteem. I think his point was that a lack of self-esteem means who have disbelieved God, who values you highly. You are of great worth to God, since he died for you.

There's something not quite right about that. God sees me as I am and I seem myself as I am. And I can't figure out for the life of me why God extended his grace to me. The fact that he did doesn't make me think I'm something special. It humbles me greatly. It does not make me think more of myself. It makes me think more of my Lord.

 

I think this is the definition of fool...

Pr 18:2 A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.

Ps 53:1 & 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.