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Seminary Entrance Requirements

Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges & Seminaries' started by Rhetorician, May 23, 2005.

  1. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Suffice it to say that my sources are from those who were there at the time to know first hand what went on. One was an administrator and the others were professors.

    If one doesn’t believe employees are paid hush money in the SBC then take a look at Dr. Dilday when he was fired. It was public knowledge that the trustees offered him hush money and he refused. It was in the Ft. Worth papers at the time. It was also in the media. When people have nothing to hide they hide nothing. Certainly that was not the case with the trustees when they fired Dilday. It was reported in the media, newspapers, by the faculty and the trustees that they gave Dilday an excellent evaluation. Then the next day they fired him. The chairman of the trustees at the time was later caught shacking up with two ladies in his church. The trustees admitted they were afraid of having the media there. My mailman knew a lot of information as well. They are nothing short of liars.

    Do a search on BP and ABP and see what they report.

    Look at Patterson's public character.

    Would anyone respect a man who lives like a king, tells people he believes the Bible and asks for an addition onto his home to store his books. Then a few months later He tells the convention they need money for the seminary. I have been inside that home many, many times when Dr. Dilday was president. It is a huge house.

    Would anyone respect a man who allows his wife to be brought in as a full professor without any time at that seminary first. What secular university would do that? What kind of respect does that show to those who must earn that right first and had earned that distinction? Because he is an administrator and she is a professor isn’t that nepotism? What university or public school district would allow that kind of ethics. Every school district I know has policy against that. He should refuse that kind of practice and she should refuse to work under him at the same location. To add to that: the president of NOBTS is Patterson’s brother in law. Christians should refuse any kind of thing that appears of nepotism even if others agree it is okay. Insurance companies do not appreciate nepotism in business and non-profit organizations and neither does the government.

    Would anyone respect a man who says he will not fire any women at SWBTS but he just does not renew her contract? Would anyone respect a man who does not renew the contract of probably one of the finest professors SWBTS has ever known? Her name was Dr. Karen Bullock.

    If one read the BB just within the past few days the lady Hebrew teacher at SWBTS is not getting her yearly contract renewed. She was hired after Dr. Bullock and then is now not having her contract renewed. Is that ethical? From what I read, the only cause is she is a woman.

    Would anyone respect a man who does things at a seminary that are considered unethical and illegal in secular universities? Certainly seminaries are exempt from virtually all federal and state laws governing hiring and firing of employees. But a Christian should be above that kind of practice. Christians should be of the finest character in all their dealings with everyone. Christians are bound by a higher code than convenience or just because they may not like a situation.

    Would anyone respect a man who has made several trips to Africa and hangs animal heads on his wall so everyone can see them while there are students coming from those same countries who can hardly afford a bicycle. Just imagine what those trips cost! Two hundred dollars goes a long ways in some of those countries in Africa. Seems to me that is living like a king in luxury and indulgence while others who come to the seminary come at a great sacrifice. Is that exemplifying the best in ethical leadership?
     
  2. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    I was told the lawyer representing the faculty made it clear to the seminary law firm that it would cost the seminary millions of dollars through the federal courts if he carried it out. So he dropped the issue because it would have been a gross violation of federal laws.

    I understand that Patterson has done away with tenure. He is setting himself up for serious trouble. Many people don't realize it but tenure can prevent a number of abuses. Where I taught high school they had some excellent administrators. They were good friends and had been there about 30 years together. But when they retired at the same time was the school ever in for a surprise! When I started teaching high school the teachers found out that the superintendent was hiding money and they eventually brought it out. The superintendent eventually left. 17 years later the school is still struggling because of what that man did. People often think tenure promotes incompetence. But it also prevents abuses by the administrators. Administrators in churches and public entitiies have stolen lots of money. If an employee reported it, they would have probably been without a job. Tenure tends to prevent that. Tenure does not prevent the removal of an incompetent professor.

    My opinion is that one who has legitimate beefs needs to tell them. They need to be covered by the whistleblower act. If the employee is there just to stir up trouble then he needs to be reprimanded and then asked to leave if he persists. If the administration is squeaky clean then there should be no fear of bad reviews or opinions.

    I believe SWBTS is setting itself up for possible administrative abuse because there is much less accountability by the administrator.
     
  3. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician Administrator
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    gb93433,

    I thank you for your response.

    I will grant the ordeal w/Dr. Dilday was a fiasco on several levels. As I declared above, I have not always been proud of the antics of the conservatives. In many respects we have traded one "power group" for another "power group." This is obvious. And in some manner, the new power group may be worse than the previous one.

    However, you have not met my challenge--IMHO.

    Your series of "Would anyone respect a man who has . . . " still does not give any substantiation to the aforementioned charges using hard data. You have laid out a masterful & wonderful rhetorical method. But sometimes even rhetoricians must furnish some logos (data) along with their ethos and pathos. You seem very "animated" or passionate about the topic. You seem to play on the emotion of the issues, of which there is certainly plenty, w/o much logos. And I believe you to be a man of integrity so I will grant the pathos (character) dynamic of your presentation.

    You seem to have put the critique back on a subjective level of the generic "Would anyone . . . ?" straw man. Who is this "anyone" I ask?

    Many of the charges you level against PP may possibly be true!! But, who is to say that you or I would not do the same type of things or even worse!? We know that "absolute power corrupts absolutely" do we not? We also know that "the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked" do we no?

    I really just want some documentation. I do however remember that "your perceptions are not my reality." Your perceptions are your own reality. In light of that, I would ask that you:

    1. Temper your expressed perceptions with some modicum of grace.

    2. Please use a measure of grace when criticizing our denom leaders in an open forum like the BB.

    3. Remember that each one of us stands or falls unto the Lord personally and alone.

    More discussion welcomed and expected.

    sdg!

    rd
     
  4. Baptist born Baptist bred

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    gb

    I think you have done a marvelous job of slandering on of our SBC leaders and want you to know that you actions are offensive. Your allegations are unsbustantiated.

    I guess Patterson may live like a king...He doesn't own his own house or car. When he stops working, it's gone.

    What I think is sad is that past presidents had no need for a library. Most, apparently, only had a few bookshelfs worth of books. I am glad he needed an addition to the house.

    His wife was brought on a full professor without pay. Not nepotism. She has excellent credentials and could be elected as faculty at any of the SBC institutions immediately.

    As to not renewing contracts...many things go into that. In America you are innocent until proven guilty so give him the benefit of the doubt and assume it was more than the fact she was a woman.

    In addition, I am fairly confident that he has not done away with tenure.

    As for the trips to Africa, I personally know of missionaries he has visited to encourage them on those trips, of people he has led to the Lord, and of students he has identified to come study in America. Much more than an expensive hunting trip. But even so, if that is what he does for fun isn't he entitled? Isn't it still a free country?

    You ask would anyone respect a man like Patterson...Yes, I do. So please stop slandering him.
     
  5. TaterTot

    TaterTot Guest

    They are brothers in law, and you can imagine the tensions that run high at holiday gatherings. Dr. Kelley does an excellent job of stating the truth without slandering. Read between the lines of some of his articles. If people like him gave up, the others would have a much easier time "resurging conservatism".

    GB, I agree with your assessments. ANd I am afraid that we are taking backward steps for each step we take forward.
     
  6. TexasSky

    TexasSky Guest

    Ladies and Gentlemen - The problem is much worse than you realize.

    Remember - these men could NOT be running our seminaries if the delgates from Baptist congregations did not allow it.

    That glass house riddled with stones was built by people representing congregations. If the house is corrupt - what about the foundation?
     
  7. shannonL

    shannonL New Member

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    GB if you think Doc. Patterson lives like a king all I can say IS LONG LIVE THE KING.

    He has a proven track record of running a seminary. I went to SEBTS almost at the beginning of the time D.P came there as president.

    He took more bologna from people in that community,from the papers from all kinds of sources. He gave me some of the best advice and encouragement I ever received during that time in my life. Students loved him. He went out on visitation every saturday he was home just like he encouraged student to do. SEBTS went from a physically decaying, Bible denying , liberal filled seminary running just barely 800 to a beutiful campus where Jesus is glorified and the Bible is the supreme authority. Today it is a wonderful spirit filled campus. Running close to 2000 students if not more.Thanks to Doc. Patterson and trustees that had the intestinal fortitude, the backbone if you will, to rid that institution of deadbeat liberals who were perverting the minds of young men called to the ministry.

    Your so bold why don't you e-mail Dr. Patterson. You'll get a free neck-tie if you do. It has been his custom to send one to some of his sharpest critics. His coming to NC was the best thing that ever happened for conservative SBCers in the state.
     
  8. Jimmy C

    Jimmy C New Member

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    Tater
    I basically agree with your assesment of Dr. Kelly - the big boys in the convention are not pleased with his stance on sole memebership.

    I also think Rand is correct - the real problem at SWBTS is Blaising - in fact I think that PP has basically abdicated the running of the seminary to Blaising, to the detriment of SWBTS. Patterson is president in name only - his only real goals (as far as I can surmise, is increasing enrollment, getting more students to attend chaplel and build a new chapel. It was actually quite funny/sad at the end of the semester when students had saved up thier chapel cuts, the chapel was quite empty.

    I thought that when Patterson came in that Blaisings days were numbered - he (blaising)seems to have consolidated his power to such an extent that my current thought is that PP will be president for a couple years more (until they can build the Paige and Dot Patterson Chapel) then will turn the presidency to who ever else the pwoers that be want to reward for thier years of service to the "conservative resurgence"

    blaising has been setting the agenda for several years now
     
  9. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    I have not gotten my necktie yet. I have Emailed him and mailed him before I had a computer.

    What I saw then and see as worse now has nothing to do with theology but ethical practices. A leader does not seek to control people especially professors unless he has an agenda.

    When a man has a 150,000 addition put onto the President's home just for his books and not one other President has asked for that doesn't that make you kind of wonder. I had worked on that home for many months and have been in every room in that home. In fact I did a lot of the work on that home. When Patterson wakes up in the morning he looks at my work. When anyone goes in that home he looks at my work.

    SWBTS has students who have sacrificed to get there and then they put an unnecessary addition on his home. How ethical is that as a leader. I was a manager for a multi-million dollar corporation and never once did I take a paycheck first without pay raises for the men. I never asked the company to do something for me first before the employees. A leader of a seminary puts the students first. He does not go to Africa costing loads of money and bring back stuffed animal heads. That money should go to helping students.

    What man of integrity would allow his wife to work under him if he is an administrator? Secular schools do not even allow such things. Christians should have much higher standards as to avoid conflict of interest and nepotism. When I was in business that was considered unethical. Seems that Christians should have a much higher standard than what even the world will not allow.

    I have Emailed him a few times and mailed him as well before I had a computer. I have not gotten my necktie yet.
     
  10. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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  11. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    That is exactly what I have been told by those who were there until recently.
     
  12. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    They are brothers in law, and you can imagine the tensions that run high at holiday gatherings. Dr. Kelley does an excellent job of stating the truth without slandering. Read between the lines of some of his articles. If people like him gave up, the others would have a much easier time "resurging conservatism".
    </font>[/QUOTE]I have great respect for Dr. Kelley, I have been told that they do get along quite well.
     
  13. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician Administrator
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    gbc,

    If you are correct in your own mind, and if you are so filled with so much bitterness and hatred, then why do you stay in the SBC?

    sdg!

    rd
     
  14. TaterTot

    TaterTot Guest

    It doesnt appear to me that GB is bitter, at all. The fact is, there ARE issues within the structure of the SBC, and turning a blind eye or leaving would only cause one to help the problems continue.

    Anyone read "The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind" by Mark Noll? Very pertinent book to this situation.
     
  15. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    It is not a matter of being correct in my own mind. The truth is the truth. Leaders must he held to a higher standard. "Let not many be teachers . . ." If I am wrong please show me where I am wrong.

    I do not know that I call it bitterness and hatred but anger much like Jesus had when he threw the money changers out of the temple. I have seen what has happened to friends of mine who were working at the seminary and in the pastorate. It is sad.

    What would you do? What did Martin Luther do when in the RCC? Did he play it safe? He risked his life. Baptists have him to thank for his diligence and steadfast stance for Christ. The kingdom of political football in the SBC which is leading many astray needs to come down and be replaced with Christ. Nashville needs to be replaced with the Holy Spirit. They need to quit the political football, repent and be honest before God.

    Let me ask you what do you think Jesus would have done if He were sharing the good news of the gospel with his mailman and then one day find out from him about the liars in the SBC when Dilday was fired? Then later he tells you about the chairman of the trustees was caught shacking up with some ladies in his church. What would Jesus have done? What did he do in the gospels? My Bible tells me the righteous are as bold as a lion not quiet as a church mouse.

    What do you think the prophets in the OT would have said about such things?

    Look at the results in the SBC. Evangelism is way down. The simple fact is people in the SBC are shackled by the mess. To be quite honest I am most impressed by Welch the new president. I truly believe the rest of the SBC leaders need to go and let God work. From what I know of Welch, he practices what he preaches. He has nothing to hide. I hope they will let him lead and bring the SBC around.

    Am I wrong to think such things? Maybe you are right. But I find I cannot be content to stand for less than what we are called to do. Isn’t that what Charles Spurgeon did when he was voted against in the Downgrade Controversy. Look at the results today from that action then by the pastors in the association as they stood against Spurgeon. I believe the SBC is already paying an awful price and the people involved are accepting that as a way of life. It does not have to be that way.

    Am I wrong or am I right? What is your opinion?
     
  16. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    What you wrote reminded me of the time I visited a friend of mine and he corrected me and pointed out how I had changed. I was rather embarassed. We were friends and were in college together. From that time in my life I have many friends who are not SBC. I was accepting things around me as right when they were wrong. I had comepletly lost my focus. I didn't even know right from wrong in some cases. But when my friend corrected me I knew he was right. As I began to think, I began to discover where I strayed. I was pastoring at the time too. Thankfully I had a friend who corrected me. He was not a pastor just a close friend.
     
  17. TaterTot

    TaterTot Guest

    And as a seminary professor pointed out, Jerry Falwell is now Southern Baptist. And HE didnt change his views. He just fits in now. It has to stop somewhere.
     
  18. Baptist born Baptist bred

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    gb

    It is apparent to me that criticism is your spiritual gift. You use it well. I will refrain from refuting your uninformed opinions and simply say this.

    Patterson is a man of God who has done more for God's Kingdom than most men who ever walked this Earth. I praise God for him and his ministry. Criticize if you will, but I ask this question. When we get to heaven will you have had as great an impact as he has had?

    It is easy to criticize and hard to act. I pray that you will have and in fact you may have already had that great an impact. I just wish the focus of a forum would be positive instead of negative.

    As for Falwell being Southern Baptist. Praise God that the SBC has moved toward a biblical theology that recognizes the Bible as without error and fully sufficient.
     
  19. TaterTot

    TaterTot Guest

    My southern baptist experience has always been that.
     
  20. Jimmy C

    Jimmy C New Member

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    Amen Tater Tot
     
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