Serious Question

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Then show me jots and tittles in the KJV.
If they are the benchmark for what is preserved, then since they are missing in the KJV, then you are saying that the KJV is not preserved.
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Are you denying what our Lord Jesus Christ said concerning his words? Jesus Christ said these very words, and we all know what jots and tittles are, and they have to do with the Hebrew alphabet. Now knowing the importance that Jesus Christ put upon the jots and tittles of the Hebrew language, this same thing is applicable to any translation (the very importance of the words and the accuracy of the translation) of God's word. This is a verse of scripture showing us how very important every word of God is, in any given language. It cancels out the thought of those who believe only the message is important, and to which you like to divert attention away from with this childish response.

Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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In a genuine or replica AV 1611, John 3:16 appears thus:

"For God so loued the world, that he gaue his only begotten Sonne: that whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish, but haue euerlasting life."
(Note the spelling)

as compared with the later KJV editions in common use today:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

(Note the spelling)

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These two verses say the same exact thing! Of course the spelling is different, for that is how they spelled those words when printed! These differences, to which are not different, are not what is evident in the modern versions. Two completely different things.

Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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David Cloud is wrong. I have documented that many times as have others. He simply doesn't know what he is talking about.
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David Cloud is correct. If you have documented this please show it again, or refer us to where you did, for I have not seen it.

Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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I have done neither. I have faithfully defended God's word against attacks on it from the likes of David Cloud.

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NO, you have actually done the OPPOSITE of what David Cloud has done - faithfully defended the errors/alterations that have been done to God's word of truth, by the likes of Westcott and Hort and various others.

Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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[q/b]He lied; he slandered godly men; and I have seen the letters and the exchanges. Many people have shown him Scripture and urged him to repent of his false doctrine and misleading others ... he has failed. He has shown himself to be a heretic as Titus 3 talks about. He should be rejected by all Bible believing Christians until such time as he repents.
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By your comment you should repent for your slandering of a man of God. I urge you to repent. David Cloud is far from a heretic. He preaches the truth of God's word, and encourages all to separate from those things that are contrary to God's word just as the Lord commands us to do. Your opinion of him shows me your attitude towards God's truth and God's commandments.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

KJVO double standard alert:

Michelle says here that spelling changes between the 1611 and later editions of the KJV aren't important- they just are a reflection of the changing times. Yet I'm seen many KJVO's claim some diabolical conspiracy is behind the changing of the spelling of "Saviour" in the KJV to "Savior" in MV's (as an example).

 

As far as David Cloud is concerned, I have also had run ins with him. I hit him up on two things.

One was the way he slandered Kevin Bauder. As Larry said, he gave a half hearted apology.

The second was on one of his laughable KJV articles. He modified the article.

He is a fool with an audience. How pathetic that people listen to him.

 

Go, Mickey G!

 

From everything that I have seen, David Cloud is a joke. I mean, he is probably sincere in what he believes and spouts, but he is sincerely WRONG!!!

He is just another on the list KJVOlators who use the media (in whatever form) to spread his man-made propaganda. And it's sad, too, that there are so many gullible people who are so willing to swallow his arsenic without ever actually looking to find out what is true.

People are just too lazy to open their eyes! They would rather sit back and let some moron regurgitate another line of KJVOlator 'doctrine' instead of digging for the facts of the beginning of this heresy.

Sad, indeed!

In Christ,
Trotter

 

I agree. I want to read it, too.

 

I guess you forgot about the vowels that were added to the Word of God in the MT's.
What about the fact that I have more than sixty-six books in my 1611 Authorised Version. I said it before, and I will say it again:
If your King James Bible ain't got the Apocrypha, then you ain't got a REAL King James Bible. [sic]

Interesting observation.
Do you mean to imply that David Cloud has not done any of these things? Are you saying that the articles in his "Apostasy Database" could never be construed as slanderous?

If David Cloud does indeed "preach the Truth of God's Word, and encourages all to separate from those things that are contrary to God's Word just as the Lord commands us to do," then perhaps you could show us what Scriptural Passage/Passages support the total rejection of all other English Translations of God's Holy Word. David Cloud has failed to do this, so perhaps you could show us.

Then you are totally and completely wrong: the "opinion of him" that was expressed shows you Pastor Larry's attitude towards David Cloud. There is a HUGE difference.

[ May 25, 2004, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: Baptist in Richmond ]

 

I must give credit where credit's due, and this applies even to KJVOs. Having checked out many of Cloud's articles, I've found his article blasting Gail Riplinger's work to be quite TRUE.

Before any of you KJVOs rip me for agreeing with DC only when he blasts another KJVO, please TAKE THE TIME to check out Cloud's statements for yourselves!

 

Michelle:[/i] your comment you should repent for your slandering of a man of God. I urge you to repent. David Cloud is far from a heretic. He preaches the truth of God's word, and encourages all to separate from those things that are contrary to God's word just as the Lord commands us to do. Your opinion of him shows me your attitude towards God's truth and God's commandments.[/i]

Have you actually taken the time , as these men have, and I, to some extent, to have actually checked out the veracity of Cloud's statements, or have you simply believed him at face value because he's your fellow KJVO?

 

Bruce Metzger -- does he? W/H -- did they? I do not think so. What about YOU defending them?

 

Really? OK,which one do you rely on? Which one do you use as your final authority??

What do you do when the "oldest and best" disagree with one another in thousands of places in the gospels alone??

These so called "godly men who contributed so much to the faith" are the same ones that chose to ditch the Protestant MSS. of the reformation in favor of the dark age mss. from Alexandria(that has the JW's Arian rendering of John 1:18).

Since when did learning a dead language become the litmus test for someones knowledge of the Scriptures?!

Only 2% of the worlds population knows this dead language;what does the remaining 98% do? Go to a qualified "scholar" for "thus sayeth the Lord"?

 

OK, let’s hold the differences within the published body of the AV up to this criteria:

Ezekiel 24:7 AV 1611 For her blood is in the midst of her; she set it upon the top of a rock; she poured it upon the ground, to cover it with dust;

Ezekiel 24:7 AV 1769 For her blood is in the midst of her; she set it upon the top of a rock; she poured it not upon the ground, to cover it with dust;

Here the KJV in two different versions says two completely different things.
Which is the true Word of God, the 1611 original or the 1769 revision and how do you know?

HankD

 

Dr. Bob:I defend the Word of God - every jot and title in the Hebrew and every word in the Greek.

A_A:Really? OK,which one do you rely on? Which one do you use as your final authority??

Unlike the Onlyist, it appears that Dr. Bob relies upon "every word which proceedeth from the mouth of God" as his final authority regardless of the language or version. He doesn't try to limit God as the Onlyist does.

What do you do when the "oldest and best" disagree with one another in thousands of places in the gospels alone??

I'm sure that Dr. Bob can/will answer for himself, but from what I know of him, he most likely does what YOU do when you see the Byz mss disagreeing among themselves in the Gospels alone(in MUCH-greater degree than they disagree between 'families' of mss), the Masoretic Text disagreeing within itself in Samuel, Kings, & Chronicles, & the KJV rendering the same Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic words/phrases several different ways without any contextual reason to do so.

Yes, he does what you do in those instances with one exception - he doesn't invent SPIN for the answers as the Onlyist does, to try to boost a man-made myth.

 

About David Cloud, his false teachign has been documented in many places. I just told you one of them. In another article he slanders a Detroit Baptist Seminary professor about his belief in inspiration and makes a direct misquote of what the professor said. It was an out and out intentional lie and I wrote to confront him about it. He refused to respond with anything other than "I disagree." His own article is what showed him to be lying.

I have given other examples on many occasions of his errors and his ungodly demeanor. He has openly and blatantly attacked God's word. He has given false information and mislead many of the sheep into false doctrine. This is documented in almost every article he posts about Bible versions on his website. I have not slandered him. I have written to him personally to admonish him on more than one occasion. I have seen the personal correspondence of others who have done the same thing. The difference between what he has done and what I and others have done regards the truth: He doesn't always tell it; we do. When he falsely accuses a brother, it is slander. Not a one of us has falsely accused him. Everything I have said can be backed up by objective fact that he cannot deny without lying.

It is high time that we wake out of sleep and see through the lies and distortions of these false teachers. I have never defended an error in God's word. I have never defended a bad translation. We simply need to cease these attacks on God's word.