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Featured Seriously, why the KJV?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by 37818, Sep 14, 2022.

  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That is not true.
    The passage in question does not say, "be baptized, wash away thy sins, and calling on the name of the Lord."
    But rather "be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Big difference. Where those conjunctions are changes what those statements are.
     
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  2. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Here is the quote again just in case someone missed it.

    Acts 22:16
    And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

    The condition for receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost was to be baptized in water for those of the people of Israel during the transition time from God's operative principle of Law in the OT under the Mosaic Covenant to the Operative principle of promise under the newly established New Covenant. The water baptism pictures the repentant believer being put into Christ and receiving the Spirit of Christ in them. This will be explained later in the epistles and we will see the purpose of God in all that he does. Trying to put God in your very small box is akin to being stubbornly resistant to his will. They must be circumcised to be in the family and to be the people of God under the law. That is not true under the New Covenant but they must be baptized in water to have the covenant blessings, which is the indwelling Holy Ghost and remission of sins in Jesus Christ. This is picturing the new birth into the family of God.

    Do you understand that for 1500 years that Israel labored under the law of Moses, there were things they must do to be in favor with God? Sure, those who were justified under the law were justified by faith in what God said but keeping those ordinances was not arbitrary among them. They were commands.

    You guys cannot see any of this, can you?
     
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That is an interpretion not an explicit teaching of the word of God.
     
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  4. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    That would of course be true if the scriptures do not teach anything and one can apply the things that are written in them to match their own adopted religions and systems, like most people on this forum do. However, if one is constrained by the words in a text in how they understand the information and must be careful to honor themes and experiences and promises of ones by whom it was written, then it might be revealed in the judgement that you were among the most spiritual and intelligent and discerning men who has lived since the mind of God began to be revealed and his thoughts recorded in written words in what we call scripture. Forgive me for doubting that that is what will be revealed by the judgement about you.

    One must believe the words. One must honor context. That is safe.

    The scriptures are written about a period of 7000 years of human history in time in which 6000 years are passed. That leaves one thousand years and if God meant what he said, that one day with him is as a thousand yeas and a thousand year as one day (I know that is just a figure of speech with little meaning for most) then we have a sabbath day coming up. God has worked for 6 days in our redemption and he will reap the harvest in the end in a period of 7 years. During that time he and burn up the tares. I think he has already lit the fire. One cannot have rest with a world full of rebels around.

    The promises to the people and nation of Israel means nothing to you men and the Bible is really senseless and purposeless.

    Jesus Christ has chosen to rule the earth for all eternity over a converted citizenry beginning with and through the Jews. How many times has he said it? He gave them the opportunity to be converted as a nation in Acts 2:38 and for 7 years and they would not repent. Only a remnant repented and he turned to gentiles with whom he had no previous pleasant relationship and set Israel aside and even drove them out of the land he had given them for two of his days or two thousand years as we count time. When he has completed his purpose for this age of forming his church from both Jew and gentile repenters and believers, then he will remove them and purge this whole world of every sinner who refuses to repent and he will accomplish his purpose for the earth for the relative few Jews and nations who are left. God has told us this in his marvelous word and the reason you and others do not know this and refuse to believe it is because you will not believe the words of the scriptures.

    John 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
    17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
    18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

    The point that these Jews missed is that it was not the sabbath day in God's thinking. It was only the beginning of the 5th day of the week to God. Believe me when I say God will honor his own sabbath day that is coming very soon.
     
    #84 JD731, Sep 21, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2022
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Well, you, of course, presume your interpretations are correct. As do most interpreters of what ever one reads. Typically it cannot be any other way.
     
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  6. Eternally Grateful

    Eternally Grateful Active Member

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    The command to be baptized in acts 2 was not given to everyone. It was only given to individuals.

    so it could not be a call to the nation. If it was the command to repent and be baptized would both be 2nd person plural.

    so your thoughts on what acts 2 means is flawed..

    again, if you would look at the greek you would see this..
     
  7. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    You may define believing the words is interpretation if that is what you want to do, but I call it believing the words. You are like talking to a Calvinist and telling him the scripture says that "in due time, Christ died for the ungodly." Well, they say, that is me and not you even after Paul had proven there was none righteous, no not one. I do not know what to do with fellows like is on this board who shows up claiming to be Baptists and not believing words that they think will conflict with their belief system that they have adopted.

    It is like the old guy who said, "don't confuse me with the facts!"
     
  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    There are two issues. What it actually says. And how one interprets to mean what it really doesn't say.
     
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  9. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    You interpret (and thus believe) the words according to your (perhaps hyper-dispensational) belief system that you have already adopted so you seem to be guilty of what you accuse others. You may define believing the words according to your non-scriptural KJV-only belief system.

    KJV-only advocates are the ones who do not want to be confused with the facts as they believe assertions for the KJV that are not true.
     
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  10. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    It was a collective call because that is the way God views his people. However, each individual makes up the collective and must obey the command if they receive the gift.

    When he finally does save all Israel, it will be all of them who are left, which will be few in number because this in Acts 2 is a baptism of Israel with the Holy Ghost but they have another baptism in the future which will be with fire.

    Ex 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
    23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

    He was to be born again at Pentecost in Acts 2 when the Spirit was given from God as a gift.

    Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
    8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
    9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
    10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
    12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

    19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
    20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
    21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
    22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
    23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
    24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
    25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
    26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

    lK 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
    11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
    12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
    13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
    14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
    15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
    17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
    20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
    22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
    23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
    24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
    25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
    26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
    27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
    29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
    30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
    31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
    32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

    Isaiah 24:6
    Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

    Jeremiah 19:11
    And shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaketh a potter's vessel, that cannot be made whole again: and they shall bury them in Tophet, till there be no place to bury.

    Israel will be purified by fire by those 7 plagues of Revelation.
    Psa 126 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
    7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

    Of course you are not going to believe any of this, right?
     
  11. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    \
    When someone suddenly realizes that they have been fingered with facts and they are no longer able to make excuse for their unbelief, the only thing left for them is name calling and diversion. The Bible is reasonable and logical and it is not a book of religion, it is the revelation of the plans and purposes of God almighty and how you fellows have come up with the way to understand it is to not believe what it says and substitute your own ideas and preconceptions and presuppositions is a little beyond my capacity to comprehend.

    My ideas are not hyper dispensational. I have supplied passages to have them confirm what I say. If I have forced anything on any text then I want to be called on it. I do not want to be like you fellows and deny the very words I am reading while revealing to the world that you cast off your education and reasoning ability when it comes to the scriptures.

    You will not answer the question if the baptism is the second condition to those of Israel, who was there in Jerusalem, perhaps over a million of them, to celebrate the annual feast day, Pentecost, that they as the people of God had been celebrating for 1500 years. But this one is the one that mattered and was the fulfillment of the prophetic event that it pictured, the sending of the Holy Ghost to form the church by birthing those who receive the Spirit into this new family of God. This feast featured two loaves from the wheat harvest ground into meal with leaven in it that was baked as a wave offering to the Lord. They represent Jews and gentiles and the leaven represents corruption, which both groups still have as long as we have these weak bodies that have not been glorified.

    The seven feast are accomplished over 7 months, May to October, and represent the entire growing season.
    The festivals of Israel, three of them, are associated with the spring, summer, and fall feast days and every male of Israel, twenty years old and upward, was required to be in Jerusalem for these festivals.

    1) Passover - killing the Lamb
    2) Unleavened bread - uncorruption of the body in the tomb
    3) Firstfruits - Resurrection
    Festival

    7 weeks, 49 days - 4) Feast of weeks (Pentecost - means fifty) and Pentecost was a sabbath day.
    Festival on the day after the 7 sabbaths, the 50th day.
    _____________________________________
    Four feasts and two festivals have been completed on the very days they were always celebrated. Who is going to bet the last three feast days and the final festival will not occur likewise and be literally fulfilled like the others? Not me. Here are the final feasts and the dates they were celebrated.

    5) Feast of Trumpets - Two trumpets - The call to assemble is the first trump, the call to march is the last trump. This is the rapture of the church of Jesus Christ. - Oct 1
    6) Feast of Day of atonement - Oct 10
    7) Feast of Tabernacles - Israel back at peace in their land living in homemade booths. Oct 15.
    Festival

    The next major prophetic event on God's prophetic calendar is the fulfilling of the feast of trumpets.

    1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    When?
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    You are probably too smart to add 2 + 2 together and come up with 4 since it is written in the scriptures. Words have no regular meaning for some if they are found in the scriptures.
     
    #91 JD731, Sep 21, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2022
  12. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    You seem to be the one who is guilty of diversion, insults, and name-calling as you incorrectly accuse others of unbelief. When you keep presenting your own subjective KJV-only opinions and private interpretations, you are not presenting facts. Disagreeing with your opinions does not at all suggest unbelief in the Scriptures. Perhaps the command "thou shalt not bear false witness" has not regular meaning to you. You falsely accuse others of denying what the Scriptures state.

    You seem to ignore the fact that words can have a range of meanings, not the one meaning that you assert and demand that others supposedly have to believe because you say so. You ignore the fact that it is the meaning of the original-language words of Scripture according to their use in the context that would determine the meaning that the renderings in English should have.

    You refuse to see that your opinions are not as convincing as you seem to assume.
     
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  13. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Let's reboot. We began by discussing Acts 2:38. I read the text. Peter was preaching during the festival of the annual feast of weeks that Israel had been commanded under the Law of Moses to observe in Jerusalem for 1500 years. There were at least a million Jews there besides the men of Judah.They were men of Israel who had been dispersed out of their land in 722 BC and scattered in the nations. They still came to Jerusalem 3 times a year to observe the festivals and make connection with God, who lived in the holy of holies in the temple.

    This Pentecost feast was climatic. Jesus Christ had just offered himself as God's eternal sacrifice some fifty days earlier. He had arisen from the dead and ascended bodily to heaven. The blood of Jesus Christ does permanently atone for sins. This will be the last festival of Pentecost that will ever be required of Israel. God has sent his Spirit to Israel and he is ready to move his residence from the Temple of stone to a temple of flesh by indwelling this people in his fullness.God can now take Israel from the physical people of God to the spiritual people of God and reign over them from the heart. Everyone of them must submit to his rulership and enter into the spiritual because his kingdom over which he will rule will be a combination of both physical and spiritual and God will rule over those men only who have chosen his kingdom.Because of God's covenant and familial relationship with Israel since Abraham, that submission to his rule is expressed in the physical by water baptism after they repent from the heart. This is never a requirement for gentiles, who later will be brought in, because there has never been such a relationship with them. God's role in this whole scenario is to keep his promise of giving his Holy Spirit to those who meet his conditions. Sadly, only about 8000 out of the whole bowed the knee, so you fellows who will not believe are in the company of the majority of Israel that day. Not many people even to this day will believe the words.

    This is a silly argument. It means God is purposely keeping the world ignorant because how many people have the ability to read the original language? If we are to be like the Bereans and search the scriptures daily to see if what they say is true, them we are left to search out the Greek speakers to find out the truth, and I have read their commentaries. Some of those people are among the dumbest people on earth.

    Two different men have said plainly they do not believe Acts 2:38 means what it says. Now, it seems you are the third.
     
  14. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    It seems this thread has ran out of steam. The one thing I have learned is the KJV is the source of biblical knowledge as it pertains to the scriptures. The Greek speakers and the "run of the mill" types, as well as the KJV only critics, cannot know the great doctrines of the faith because they do not believe the words. This thread has proven it. I am hoping the men who are posting on here are not representative of the the Baptist faith because if they are we are in real trouble. It would make the title "Baptist" be a liability.
     
  15. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Because you make the claim does not make it true. Perhaps you learned something that is not true. Your claim demonstrates how non-scriptural KJV-only teaching negatively affects Bible doctrines.
     
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  16. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Logos1560 for sharpening my sword. I want to reiterate what I have told you before and I want you to see in this following verse what is true in the Scriptures as well as in the people of God, Israel, and in the church of Jesus Christ. It is the singularity in their plurality. We have been speaking of that great truth in Acts 2:38 where God sees a singular entity made up of all the parts. Every one of them. Nothing less will do. Check this out.

    Psalm 119:130
    The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

    Thy = God. They are his words and this is plural. However, the "it" has words for an antecedent and it is singular. So, we are talking about God here and not man. He sees all his words being one word and that is the way which he wants us to see them. These words are so related they cannot be separated and put into a different family.

    Do you agree?

    It is like God speaking about his Law in James 2:10. That verse says it like this:

    10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

    Can you see it? This is how God is. He creates things that are inseparable and remains as a single unit though they have thousands of parts. He is not the author of a hundred different English Bible translations. He is just not that way.There is no type or revelation where God presents himself the way you fellows presents him. There must be continuity in the words throughout the whole.
     
    #96 JD731, Sep 23, 2022 at 12:09 PM
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2022 at 12:37 PM
  17. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    You unsoundly attempt to dictate to God how He works. You have failed to demonstrate that your human KJV-only reasoning is sound and scriptural. The Scriptures do not teach that God is the author of the KJV.

    God was involved in the making of multiple, varying English Bibles unless you are saying that the KJV is a revision of English Bibles that God opposed or was not involved with their making; thereby, undermining the very English foundation of the KJV.

    The 1611 KJV cannot be separated from the multiple English Bibles of which it is a revision. The Church of England makers of the KJV even borrowed many renderings from the 1582 Roman Catholic Rheims New Testament [a fact that you avoid or ignore]. That fact is a serious problem for your KJV-only opinions.
     
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  18. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    I have given you enough internal evidence to convince you of the superiority of the KJV. Those other Bibles that you mention still exists and they are different than the KJV. You named yourself after one of them for crying out loud. God does not just continue to stack up Bibles like you teach. You are preaching a different God than the one who reveals himself on the sacred pages. If you are an honest man and you have a teacher who lives in your heart then you will eventually agree with me about all these English Bibles and Paraphrases and corruptions. When you do I will be very happy to forgive you for your constant harassment of KJV only believers.

    There is a real devil who is called the adversary whether anyone here believes it or not. There is never a mention, not one, from the crowd that promotes and champions all these end days Bibles that have appeared at the very end of the church age along with "Christian television" with their faith healers and tongue talkers and miracle workers and other liars. I am going to start a thread soon and talk about how he works just so some people on this forum will know that he is alive on planet earth and he has ministers who appear as angels of righteousness and deceives many. I have said surely someone will mention him at some time but I have been here for years and no one ever acknowledges him and his cadre of preachers and, quote, unquote, Christian workers.

    Stay tuned for a thread about him and his translating techniques. If you have ever mentioned him,even though he is the master of the subtle attack on God's word, I have completely missed it
     
    #98 JD731, Sep 23, 2022 at 7:57 PM
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2022 at 8:09 PM
  19. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    No, you have not given enough evidence. Internal evidence from a translation itself does not prove that the translation has the most accurate rendering of the preserved Scriptures in the original languages.

    You jump to a wrong conclusion and use a fallacy if you assume that a few or even many examples of claimed superior renderings in the KJV proves the KJV to be perfect and superior in every rendering. Even if the KJV could be better overall (which has not been proven), it would not lead to the conclusion that the KJV is superior in every rendering when compared to the preserved Scriptures in the original languages.

    I can present many examples where I consider the Geneva Bible or the NKJV to be better or superior to the less accurate renderings in the KJV when compared to the preserved Scriptures in the original languages. I can present many examples where the KJV does not give any English word where there are original-language words of Scripture in their underlying texts.

    You would likely dismiss or ignore my examples so why should your examples be blindly accepted when you do not compare them to the preserved Scriptures in the original languages and do not prove them to be superior according to the preserved Scriptures in the original languages?
     
  20. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

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    It is dishonest of you to argue as if there is one original language source for all these translations and paraphrases and dynamic equivalences when you know there are four sources and they are different. And it is dishonest of you to argue as if all translators were translating the same source manuscripts. It is dishonest of you to assume that the motives of all these translation boards were pure and it is dishonest of you to reject the sure truth that there is a real Satan who has much skin in the game and is identified by our Lord himself as the father of lies and who presents himself as an angel of light and sends forth his ministers to deceive.
     
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