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Sermon tomorrow - C vs. A!! Can't wait for it!

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by annsni, Feb 9, 2008.

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  1. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    So, Pastor came to me yesterday afternoon to set up a graphic for the sermon. This one wasn't too bad, thank goodness, because I had a lot of work to do yesterday! But it looks like we might get a little discussion on free will/election. He showed me a paper with a hand drawn picture on it that I had to make look nice for a PowerPoint and here's what the beginning looks like:


    God's Sovereign Election
    ---------------------------->

    Man's Free Will & Responsibility
    <------------------------------

    (OK - can't get that to work - think of those on the same line and the 2 lines with arrows facing each other)

    Showing that both seem to be in opposition to each other. He's going to go over Scriptural support for both of them since there IS support for both.


    Then the next slide will be the same thing, but with a very bright sun in the middle that will swallow up the ends of the arrows. That bright sun is the "Infinitude of God". He feels that the full answer rests in God's infinite wisdom and not our own earthly understanding. My husband has said that there are great men of faith on both sides of the argument with very VALID arguments for their side. This is an interesting solution for the C vs. A argument.

    I know some of you stand firmly on one side and some on the other. I've seen the Scripture and the arguments here for both sides and both make a lot of sense. Do you think it's possible that it could be that both are right?? Hmmm - I guess this will be the kind of thing we go to heaven and one day say 'Hey - by the way, which is it??'. LOL
     
    #1 annsni, Feb 9, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 9, 2008
  2. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Great approach! I'll have to do the same someday.
     
    #2 TCGreek, Feb 9, 2008
  3. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Ann , polar opposites can not be both right . I am referencing your comment that "both make a lot of sense." That would be irrationality .
     
    #3 Rippon, Feb 9, 2008
  4. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Of course. "choose this day whom ye shall serve" is the right approach.

    BBob,
     
    #4 Brother Bob, Feb 9, 2008
  5. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Even when there's Scriptural support for both sides?
     
    #5 annsni, Feb 9, 2008
  6. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    I believe both are right, as both have scriptural support. Then again you must define your meaning with some terms, like what does one mean regarding soveriegnty- If God is soveriegn (which He is) can He allow His creation choice and still maintain His soveriegnty? The answer of course is yes, but some do not agree He is still soverieng if you have a choice.


    However, I like the way C. H. Spurgeon put it - (paraphrased somewhat)

    Above the door to heaven we will read "whosoever will may come".
    Once through and looking back at the door one will also read "elect from the foundation of the world".

    My wording does not do justice to his wording, but you get the idea.

    I will also post this from his sermon "A defence of Calvinism".
     
    #6 Allan, Feb 9, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 9, 2008
  7. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Oohh! Like that!! Thanks!
     
    #7 annsni, Feb 9, 2008
  8. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Scripture does not contradict Scripture . Tenets opposing one another can not both be right .
     
    #8 Rippon, Feb 9, 2008
  9. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Charles Spurgeon also said this and I agree.


     
    #9 Amy.G, Feb 9, 2008
  10. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    LOL - Looks like Pastor has been reading Spurgeon!
     
    #10 annsni, Feb 9, 2008
  11. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    Only in our wisdom, in God's wisdom it works...

    I too can reconcile both, as both have scriptural support...
    but then again, it may be easier for me since my alter ego, Bubba, is a Calvinist, and my other Alter Ego, Billy Bob, is an Armin... Armen.... OH, that word that means free will!

    I am probably more like Allan in my theology than any others here when it comes to C vs. A

    I also compared C and A one Wednesday night..

    I gave both sides, along with the scriptural support..

    I feel my congregation has the right to hear both sides... and then they can make up their mind...

    Most are about 60% A, and 40% C...
     
    #11 tinytim, Feb 9, 2008
  12. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Christ died for each and every person who has , is and shall live . Vs. Christ died for only the elect .

    People are sick in sin . They just need to take the first baby step toward the Lord . Vs. People are dead in their sins , hostile to the Lord and have no desire , ability , insight , strength in themselves to turn toward the Lord . The Lord alone brings people of His choosing to Himself .

    God's sovereignity is almost absolute , but not when it comes to someone being saved -- people are created as independent , sovereign beings with a free will to decide for the Lord . Vs. God is absolutely sovereign Master over everything and everyone . We are clay in His Almighty hands . He gives us faith and repentance . Salvation is all of the Lord from start to finish .

    Examples could be multiplied to disconnect the absurdity that "both sides are right" . There are no round squares . One has to admit that Calvinism and other isms are mutually contradictory .
     
    #12 Rippon, Feb 9, 2008
  13. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    Rippon, Both are true depending on the perspective from which you look...
    Eternity, or here and now...
    For instance from our perspective (in time) Christ died for everyone.
    But from eternity's perspective, (Outside of time) Christ died only for the elect...

    God elected at the same point we chose (when you look at it without the influence of time)

    God elected .............................We chose
    ---------------->Boom<-------------------
    .............(point outside of time)

    BTW, the word "boom" represents Spurgeon's idea of the Door entrance
     
    #13 tinytim, Feb 9, 2008
  14. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I think thats a good observation in one way of looking at it. As far as the boom, seems to me that would be when you receive salvation, from that point on you are the "elect".
    You were chosen out of the world.

    BBob,
     
    #14 Brother Bob, Feb 9, 2008
  15. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    You were chosen out of the world before the world began... :laugh:
    Sorry, couldn't resist.... Bubba took over!
     
    #15 tinytim, Feb 9, 2008
  16. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    OK, seriously, I agree.. and since from God's perspective from within eternity, there is no time, the moment I accepted Christ was the same moment he chose me before the foundation of the world....

    Remove the time element, and watch both sides collide...
    It is really enlightening...

    When that pesky thing called time is removed, both can coexist...

    The problem is, it hurts our brains to think in a dimension in which there is no time....
    no past, no future, but only here and now.... That's why God said "I am"
     
    #16 tinytim, Feb 9, 2008
  17. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    I'm reminded of Scripture: "Fight the good fight of faith," but in this case: "Fight the good of Calvinism vs. Arminism and everything else in between.
     
    #17 TCGreek, Feb 9, 2008
  18. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    wonder why I did all that sinning???:laugh:
     
    #18 Brother Bob, Feb 9, 2008
  19. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    Who's perspective represents the accurate view of reality, man or God's?
     
    #19 J.D., Feb 9, 2008
  20. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    He sees all at once.
     
    #20 Brother Bob, Feb 9, 2008
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