SETI-- a "pseudoscience?"

Was the search for Neptune due to deviations in Uranus' orbit a religious search?

I think there's more to religion than hopefully searching for tangible evidence of something thought to exist.

 

Umm, no.

It does mean they're kooks though! Because of the limitations of space and time attempting to discover a transmission from light years away during one's lifetime is rather an exercise in futility.

God cannot be discovered through scientific inquiry. The existence of other intelligent life is subject to scientific inquiry, although we might not receive any answers on a useable time scale.

 

No. It constitutes a search for evidence. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

If we find aliens, we will have proven they exist.

We can't find God by looking for him with telescopes.

Creation research isn't scientific because it appeals to miraculous means for creation. The miraculous is supernatural and thus beyond examination by science.

This is one reason I'm opposed to the idea that God made things miraculously (poof!) and that they may appear to have originated by natural means but they really originated by supernatural means (young earth/six day creation contrary to the natural record). If the natural record is undependable because of supernatural meddling, it renders scientific inquiry pointless.

 

If you think that's evading the question, I think you don't understand the question!

If there are any aliens not detectable by natural means, then we are obviously not looking for those aliens. If we are searching for aliens by natural means, then obviously if they exist the aliens we are searching for will be detectable by those means. If they do not exist, the search will still be done scientifically, just without any payout.

No, it's not fair to say that, and he has a lot to do with creating and sustaining. God doesn't have to choose a weird and irrational means of making the universe when a sensible one will do just as well (and in my opinion better).

 

Dunno, bud. You seemed to be equating searching for a physical object that we are not sure is there with searching for a supernatural object (whose status we could never determine by searching). I've had a lot of socks vanish in the wash, but I don't think if I went looking for them that would mean I was worshipping my socks.

Depends on if it's a conclusion drawn from evidence or theory that the thing exists. If I just wake up one morning and announce that I had a dream of subterranean Martians with four arms and two tails and I was planning a manned expedition to make contact with those aliens. . . Well, I might be going about the search scientifically, but I think calling it science would be a bit sketchy.

Why is this a problem for me particularly? I don't know many Christians that frequently observe supernatural intervention in their lives. Yet somehow they still believe.

According to YEers, we know it because Genesis says so. I don't think this is a literal account because I think God looks an awful lot like a liar if he makes a universe that appears to be billions of years old when it's really only a few thousand.

Having faith in itself is not particularly virtuous. We have to be sure we're having faith in the right thing.

Once again, do you often see miracles in your life--that is honest-to-goodness supernatural interference, something that cannot be explained without the abrogation of natural law? I'm guessing no. I'm also guessing that you still believe that God is involved in your life in spite of not waking up every morning to find out your tap water has been turned to wine (or grape juice, depending on your preference), your dog has been raised from the dead, or some other bizarre happening has occurred. Once again, this is not something that is particular to me.

 

Amen, Petrel. If one's faith is so weak that they require this, then they need to strengthen their faith first. We will never find God in a telescope. We find Him in our hearts. Once a person finds Him there, then one sees God everywhere.

 

Completely exhausted, so this will be short.

Socks and aliens fall under the category of physical beings. We can search for those through scientific means. God falls under the category of a metaphysical being. Any attempt to search for him through scientific means is silly, like the cosmonauts saying, "We didn't see God up there." Well of course you didn't, you can't see him!

Wait a second, weren't you just telling me something about faith? "The substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"?

No, I am not refusing to answer the question, thank you for insulting me. I answered quite clearly, it's just that you have blinders on in this regard and are apparently incapable of seeing something from my point of view and aren't willing to accept what I say about my state of mind at face value. So here you go.

God created, God sustains.

 

Well, then he wouldn't be God, would he?

You would succeed if you tried looking for God in a physical form in Israel 2000 years ago. Right now you're rather out of luck.

Which is why I'm done talking to you. Too bad I haven't yet met a YE-er who is capable of talking about such things without being a jerk.

As far as I'm aware no YE-er believes God is going to let us sit around here for several more billions of years. Additionally, none of them agree that creation is going to continue in this same mode for forever--it's either going to be destroyed and replaced or repaired. So the question of whether the sun may eventually consume the earth is irrelevant as far as God's sustainment.

As for exactly what jobs does as part of his creating and sustaining, gee, I couldn't specify as I haven't created and sustained a universe lately. You are making the assumption that unless God is violating physical law he is not interacting with the universe. God is perfectly capable of interacting with the universe without breaking physical laws. You cannot demand that I only accept supernatural intervention as long as it's miraculous and then in the same breath agree that someone getting a new job they needed is an answer to prayer.

It's contradictory. If you keep along the tack that you're trying you'll end up being some kind of whacky deist--"God doesn't interact with the world unless he does so via miracles, and he doesn't do miracles so much anymore, so I guess he doesn't interact with the world."

So God created the universe in the Big Bang with all of the properties he wanted. I don't know if we could say he steered outcomes or whether we ought to say outcomes always come out the way he wanted them. . . And God sustains now, meaning if there was no God, we would not be here, and if God decided to randomly give up sustaining, the universe would be cut off like someone hitting Stop on a DVD player.

And now I'm done because it's my prerogative to decide whether or not I want to put up with being insulted, and the answer today is No.

 

Yes, you are charmingly polite. Some day I would like to meet an intelligent, inquisitive, polite Young Earther. The majority of the YEers I know are lacking in the last two attributes, many are lacking in the first. I don't know that I can say I've ever met any that matched all criteria. Sometimes it makes me sad. Of course, if I ever really did meet an intelligent, inquisitive YEer (polite or rude would not matter) they would probably not be YEer very long because they would go through the same process of examination that many of us have.

I answered your question repeatedly. I really am not sure how your inability to comprehend this can be explained. I guess it just comes down to an inability to temporarily discard your prejudices and look at something from someone else's point of view. This is a useful skill to have, even if you are always right. After all, you can't expect to convince someone else of your infallible correctness if you can't cogently explain what's wrong with their position because you fundamentally do not understand it.

I'll point out that your venemous responses are not justified by anything I have said to you in this thread. I remember you badly from other threads but was heartened to find you were apparently willing to have a civil discussion here, but I guess I was mistaken!

 

Guess you don't read so well.

Sorry, I'm not playing. If anyone is really interested they can read through this thread and find the answer.