Seventh-day Adventists - not a cult according to Walter Martin's "Kingdom of the Cults"

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Feb 7, 2018.

  1. thatbrian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,984
    Likes Received:
    263
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    The insanity goes deep.

     
  2. thatbrian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,984
    Likes Received:
    263
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    More folks saved from this hideous cult:

     
  3. BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,169
    Likes Received:
    47
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    true. but just because someone is a prophet - does not make them a "false prophet".

    Just because Christ was the Messiah - and many false Messiah's had come - did not make him a "false Messiah"

    Just because Agabus in the NT was a prophet and many false prophets had come - did not make Agabus a "false prophet".

    Just because all those in 1 Cor 14 "each one has a revelation" when they come together for worship and many false prophets had existed before them... did not make the Christians in Corinth "false prophets".

    Just because Philip's 4 daughters were prophets - and many false prophets had come before them did not make Philip's daughters "false prophets".

    Stating the obvious at this point.
     
  4. BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,169
    Likes Received:
    47
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Although you may imagine that "videos trump the Bible" I will stick with what the Bible says about doctrine "anyway" and that includes what the Bible says about prophets in 1Cor 12... 1 Cor 14, 1Thess 5, and Ephesians 4. --- snarky videos not withstanding.

    I prefer "Bible church" to "snarky video church" -- some will see the light in that.
     
  5. BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,169
    Likes Received:
    47
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    And read the Bible

    Catholics will accuse non-Catholics of not interpreting the Bible right.

    Anyone can accuse -- of anything. That is the easy part.
     
  6. thatbrian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,984
    Likes Received:
    263
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    The test of a prophet is in their prophesies. Ellen White, your prophetess, is a false prophet because she made false prophesies. On top of that, she is a false teacher, as her "gospel" is no gospel.

    Follow her, and you join her in everlasting torment.
     
  7. thatbrian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,984
    Likes Received:
    263
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Ellen White made it easy because she wrote so much. The proof of her falsehood is found in her own words. Her condemnation is just.
     
  8. BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,169
    Likes Received:
    47
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    That is one of them.

    Another one is that the doctrine that they claim God speaks of or approves of in some dream or vision would have to be infallible, true. So then for example a prophet would be a false prophet if they claimed that in a vision God said that Calvinism is correct doctrine. Because the Bible flatly refutes that doctrine.

    So also if they claim God condemns the doctrine of "one God in three persons" or that the Holy Spirit is not a person, and is not fully God etc.
     
  9. BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,169
    Likes Received:
    47
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    It is true that she was given a great many messages directly by God... over 30,000 pages of hand written manuscript.
     
  10. thatbrian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,984
    Likes Received:
    263
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Yup. Sure, Bob.

    Here's a message directly from God: "In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son. . ." Hebrews 1:2
     
  11. BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,169
    Likes Received:
    47
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Not true.

    But here are some things she did predict.
    1. At the lowest point of American and Catholic friendship in the 1800's she predicted that the Papacy would one day be welcomed in the United States

    =======================================

    TWO WORLD WARS predicted by Ellen White

    —National Archives


    Prediction of Two World Wars

    The Prediction

    The following vision of Mrs. White was originally published in the Second Advent Review and Sabbath Herald of August 21, 1861.


    I was shown the inhabitants of the earth in the utmost confusion. There was war, bloodshed, want, privation, famine and pestilence, in the land; and as these things were without, God's people began to press together, and cast aside their little difficulties. Self-dignity no longer controlled them. Deep humility took its place. Suffering, perplexity and privation, caused reason to resume its throne, and the passionate and unreasonable man became sane, and acted with discretion and wisdom.


    My attention was then called from the scene. There seemed to be a little time of peace. Then the inhabitants of the earth were again presented before me, and everything was in the utmost confusion again. Strife, war and bloodshed, with famine and pestilence, raged everywhere. Other nations were engaged in this confusion and war. War caused famine. Want and bloodshed caused pestilence. And then men's hearts will fail them for fear, "and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth." (Testimonies for the Church, vol. 1, p. 268)


    What Took Place


    This remarkable prediction is rather straightforward. It speaks of two world wars, separated by a little time of peace. There were indeed two world wars and a little time of peace during the last century:

    1. World War I

    (1914-1918)


    2. Little Time of Peace

    (1918-1939)


    3. World War II

    (1939-1945)


    Notice how also the vision predicted that the second war would involve more nations than the first war. At least twenty-eight nations fought in World War I, and at least fifty-eight in World War II.


    History tells us that these wars were deadly, as the vision also indicated:

    The world wars were almost unprecedented in their slaughter, carnage, and destruction, as mechanized armies of millions of soldiers destroyed both each other and the territories they were fighting over. The 40,000,000-50,000,000 deaths incurred in World War II make it the bloodiest conflict as well as the largest war in history. ("The World Wars," 1999 Britannica CD)



    In the vision's descriptions of both wars, famine and pestilence are emphasized. This was also a characteristic of both wars:

    Civilian deaths from land battles, aerial bombardment, political and racial executions, war-induced disease and famine, and the sinking of ships probably exceeded battle casualties.

    (Ibid.)
    ======================================================

    America becomes world dominant super power.
     
  12. BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,169
    Likes Received:
    47
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    9/11 prediction - about sky scrapers in New York - falling in a ball of fire - that were supposedly fireproof.

    Testimonies - Volume 9, page 11.

    9/11 -- The September 11 Terrorist Attacks In 1901 Ellen White saw fireproof, New York City skyscrapers not yet built come crashing down after burning like pitch. Did this vision come true?

    "On one occasion, when in New York City, I was in the night season called upon to behold buildings rising story after story toward heaven. These buildings were warranted to be fireproof, and they were erected to glorify the owners and builders. Higher and still higher these buildings rose, and in them the most costly material was used. . . ."

    "The scene that next passed before me was an alarm of fire. Men looked at the lofty and supposedly fire-proof buildings and said: "They are perfectly safe." But these buildings were consumed as if made of pitch. The fire engines could do nothing to stay the destruction. The firemen were unable to operate the engines".—Testimonies for the Church, vol. 9, pp. 12, 13.
     
  13. BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,169
    Likes Received:
    47
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Hebrews was written by Paul - John continued to prophecy long after Paul died.
    All NT writers and prophets were inspired AFTER the resurrection and acension of Christ.

    You are inserting your false doctrine into Hebrews 1 and condemning the entire New Testament as you do it.

    That seems a bit extreme
     
  14. BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,169
    Likes Received:
    47
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Ecumenical movement in America -

    "The wide diversity of belief in the Protestant churches is regarded by many as decisive proof that no effort to secure a forced uniformity can ever be made. But there has been for years, in churches of the Protestant faith, a strong and growing sentiment in favor of a union based upon common points of doctrine. To secure such a union, the discussion of subjects upon which all were not agreed—however important they might be from a Bible standpoint—must necessarily be waived." {GC88 444.1}

    the leading churches of the United States, uniting upon such points of doctrine as are held by them in common, shall influence the State to enforce their decrees and to sustain their institutions,...{GC88 445.1}

    Protestant churches shall seek the aid of the civil power for the enforcement of their dogmas.{GC88 445.2}
     
  15. thatbrian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,984
    Likes Received:
    263
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Extreme, Bob???!!! You place your trust in a whacked out woman and claim her writings are inspired by God in the same way in which biblical texts are. That's extreme, Bob. Extremely foolish.
     
  16. BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,169
    Likes Received:
    47
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Hebrews was written by Paul - John continued to prophesy long after Paul died.
    All NT writers and prophets were inspired AFTER the resurrection and acension of Christ.

    You are inserting your false doctrine into Hebrews 1 and condemning the entire New Testament as you do it.

    That seems a bit extreme

    while your post is loaded with emotionalism - it reveals a lack of acceptance of Bible doctrine specifically 1 Cor 12.

    In 1Cor 12 we see the bible doctrine on Spiritual Gifts 'first Apostles, then Prophets, then teachers..."

    The Bible affirms prophets - it does not condemn them unless they are false --

    You have "imagined" a false gift of prophecy in your post -- perhaps you simply have not read the Bible on that doctrine.

    I choose "the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible" - not "the Bible on my shelf AND some emotionalism".

    So then - what does the Bible say about the gift of prophecy -- in 1Cor 12 and 1 Cor 14?

    We see many prophets in both NT and OT that do not write scripture.

    Just because Agabus in the NT was a prophet and many false prophets had come - did not make Agabus a "false prophet".

    Just because all those in 1 Cor 14 "each one has a revelation" when they come together for worship and many false prophets had existed before them... did not make the Christians in Corinth "false prophets".

    Just because Philip's 4 daughters were prophets - and many false prophets had come before them did not make Philip's daughters "false prophets".

    Stating the obvious at this point.

    There is no text in NT or OT that says that all inspired prophets of history - also have a book authored by them in the Bible. You seem to have "made that up"

    =============================

    There is a "reason" that Walter Martin in his book "Kingdom of the Cults" and Christianity Today do not view the SDA church as negatively as you. And that reason is NOT because they accept Ellen White as having the gift of prophecy.. Rather that reason is that they LOOK at the SDA doctrinal statments... they READ... they judge the doctrine to be orthodoxy EVEN in details where they differ because they know full well other Christian groups hold to some differences with them as well.

    For people like Martin

    1. Sola Scriptura testing of all doctrine and practice.
    2. Saved by grace through faith - Ephesians 2
    3. One God in Three Persons -- Deut 6:5, Matthew 28:19
    4. Literal incarnation of God the Son - as Christ fully God and fully man
    5. Bodily resurrection of Christ and bodily ascension into heaven
    6. Literal 2nd coming - literal future resurrection, literal rapture of the church, Literal millennium

    And many other doctrines that they share with Seventh-day Adventists - place this group inline with orthodoxy.

    Not believing in the false doctrine of Calvinism - does not make a group a cult - as we all know by now.
     
  17. thatbrian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,984
    Likes Received:
    263
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    You have placed the full weight of your soul in the hands of a woman who had a third grade education, took a severe blow to the head as a young age, made many false predictions, inserted man-made extra-biblical laws, denies the gospel of grace, and you think I've done something wrong. That's rich.
     
  18. BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,169
    Likes Received:
    47
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    More emotionalism on your part is not helping you.

    Your case is so compromised -- you can't find even one doctrine that I have promoted on this board - where I quote Ellen White as my "proof or source" and we both know it. (by contrast try doing that with Mormons - they quote Smith as proof of their "doctrine" at the drop of a hat). My only quotes of Ellen White have to do with YOUR initiative to "look at statements she made"... predictions. In this discussion YOU resort to her with the same frequency that Mormons resort to Smith in their discussions. I don't do that.

    So you give yourself over to those emotional outbursts - regardless of the facts that you see in the posts every day.

    Did you think we just would not notice??

    My doctrinal statements stand "sola scriptura" and we both know it.

    So far you merely offer "emotionalism" as the opposing argument. Why keep doing that???
     
  19. thatbrian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,984
    Likes Received:
    263
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Bob, I need no help. You however are in a cult. There is no salvation in Jesus + Ellen White. You need all the help you can get.
     
  20. thatbrian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    1,984
    Likes Received:
    263
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Exhibit One. From The Adventist Review, December 23, 1982.
    Also appeared in Ministry, February 1983.

    AFFIRMATIONS

    1. We believe that Scripture is the divinely revealed word of God and is inspired by the Holy Spirit.
    2. We believe that the canon of Scripture is composed only of the sixty-six books of the Old and New Testaments.
    3. We believe that Scripture is the foundation of faith and the final authority in all matters of doctrine and practice.
    4. We believe that Scripture is the Word of God in human language.
    5. We believe that Scripture teaches that the gift of prophecy will be manifest in the Christian church after New Testament times.
    6. We believe that the ministry and writings of Ellen White were a manifestation of the gift of prophecy.
    7. We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that her writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and authoritative, especially to Seventh-day Adventists.
    8. We believe that the purposes of the Ellen White writings include guidance in understanding the teaching of Scripture and application of these teachings, with prophetic urgency, to the spiritual and moral life.
    9. We believe that the acceptance of the prophetic gift of Ellen White is important to the nurture and unity of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
    10. We believe that Ellen White's use of literary sources and assistants finds parallels in some of the writings of the Bible.
    DENIALS

    1. We do not believe that the quality or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different from that of Scripture.
    2. We do not believe that the writings of Ellen White are an addition to the canon of Sacred Scripture.
    3. We do not believe that the writings of Ellen White function as the foundation and final authority of Christian faith as does Scripture.
    4. We do not believe that the writings of Ellen White may be used as the basis of doctrine.
    5. We do not believe that the study of the writings of Ellen White may be used to replace the study of Scripture.
    6. We do not believe that Scripture can be understood only through the writings of Ellen White.
    7. We do not believe that the writings of Ellen White exhaust the meaning of Scripture.
    8. We do not believe that the writings of Ellen White are essential for the proclamation of the truths of Scripture to society at large.
    9. We do not believe that the writings of Ellen White are the product of mere Christian piety.
    10. We do not believe that Ellen White's use of literary sources and assistants negates the inspiration of her writings.
    What remains black in the above statement is meaningless in light of what is in red. How much poison in a glass of water is safe for consumption? Of course you will say that you are sola scriptura, but you also say that a deluded woman guides your understanding of that scripture, which completely undermines sola scriptura.