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Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Rebel, Mar 2, 2015.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Not only are you demonstrating complete hypocrisy by saying one thing and then demonstrating the opposite thing by this post, but you must think you are god because now you are claiming to know motives and then make accusations based upon only what God could no.

    I moving on and putting you on my ignore list.
     
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Here is the bottom line one more time
     
  3. Rebel

    Rebel Active Member

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    By their fruits you shall know them. Your fruit is rotten. I hope you do put me on your ignore list. Good riddance.
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Christ makes the case that only the future resurrection solves the problem of God saying to Moses that He "IS the God of Abraham" even though Abraham was dead at the time - because of course "God is NOT the God of the dead" as Christ affirms.

    Sadly for your position that is exactly the argument that Christ uses to prove the resurrection "of the DEAD" as He said "regarding the resurrection of the DEAD have you not read..."

    Sadly for your argument - the living do NOT need to be resurrected.

    AND sadly for your argument Christ did not say "But regarding the resurrection of the LIVING have you not read that ..."

    obviously.


    So much for your "they are living".

    obviously.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    At no point is Christ arguing for anything OTHER what HE says "regarding the resurrection of the DEAD have you not read that ..."

    Your argument keeps trying to turn this into the flawed idea that the 'living need to be resurrected" as you keep describing Abraham as "LIVING" when God says "He is NOT the God of the Dead but of the LIVING" - yet it is THIS statement combined with "I am the God of Abraham" that PROVES the resurrection.

    you bend it to prove immortal soul fiction - and that destroys the whole case for the resurrection!!

    1. HE is the God of the Living so then Abraham is DEAD and cannot be said to be in relationship to God until once again he is LIVING.

    So when God says "He is the God of Abraham" it is because of that FUTURE change - resurrection.

    2. In Romans 4 "God calls those things that are not - as though they are" and so to Abraham God says "A father of many nations I HAVE MADE you" while as yet - Abraham had no child.

    The point remains.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #65 BobRyan, Mar 23, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 23, 2015
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    What planet do you live on? Your argument is completely baseless. There is no use of the future tense! You can't show it because it is not there!

    He did not say God "shall be" the God of the living! But that is your argument!





    No one is denying the resurrection is future! However, his argument in behalf of the future resurrection is based entirely upon a PRESENT TENSE argument about PAST tense people.

    He did not say God "SHALL BE" the God of Abraham but he says "I AM" and He is not the God "of the dead" which has reference to their BODY in the grave as that is the "DEAD" aspect that needs resurrection in the future.

    He did not say they "SHALL LIVE" but used the present tense "LIVING" as their present reality and he is not speaking about their bodies which are dead and need to be made alive and will be made alive in the future resurrection, but is speaking about the PRESENT STATE of their souls, which the Sadducees denied presently existed, and that is the very basis for their ultimate denial of a future resurrection because they denied there presently existed ANYTHING of man for the body to be united with in resurrection.

    So in summary, Jesus does not use FUTURE tense verbs in the statement we are debating - none - zilch - nada! He uses PRESENT TENSE verbs in describing what He is not and what He is in regard to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is not the God of the dead - referring to their bodies in the grave which are dead and which need resurrection to live. He is referring to the souls of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob which ARE living and therefore he destoyed the whole basis of the Sadducean rejection of a future resurrection as they argued NOTHING PRESENTLY EXISTS of those who have died - and therefore there is no need to raise material bodies since there is no existing immaterial substance of dead people to unite with that body. The continued existence of the soul after death is clearly stated and proven by Christ in Matthew 10:28 and that fact destroys the whole sadducean argument, just as it destroys your whole argument which is nothing more than a modern variety of Sadduceanism.
     
    #66 The Biblicist, Mar 24, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 24, 2015
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1. Obviously the Sadducees were not simply going to "dream up" an "immortal soul doctrine" that Christ never argued for.

    I think almost everyone agrees to a that obvious detail.

    2. Christ stated explicitly that He is proving the "resurrection of the DEAD" - this is IN the text!!

    3.What is not in the text is 'well we must all INFER immortal soul and then imagine maybe immortal souls need resurrection even though they have no need of it"

    Again -an incredibly obvious point not to be dismissed lightly.

    Sadly once again you express your defense in the form of a "Direct contradiction of the text".

    How do you expect to get by with that?

    In BOTH John 11 AND IN Matt 22 the resurrection is future. Christ is being challenged to PROVE that FUTURE resurrection.


    23 The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, 24 saying: “Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 25 Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. 27 Last of all the woman died also. 28Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.


    30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 31But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God,

    "God IS not the God of the DEAD" is the affirmation Christ makes - and BOTH the Sadducees and Christ fully agree that YES - God IS NOT the God of the dead.

    And BOTH agree that Abraham is dead and buried.

    This is how they BOTH viewed dead patriarchs.

    Acts 2
    29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

    Christ is proving the FUTURE resurrection of the DEAD and BOTH sides consider that Abraham "is both dead and buried to this day"

    And since "God IS NOT the God of the DEAD" -- and Abraham IS DEAD - how can the statement spoken to Moses even be true at all??

    This is the "puzzle" Christ offers them where HE CLAIMS the only way out - is to accept the doctrine of the RESURRECTION.

    you have conjured up an imaginary doctrine as your way of escaping Christ's PROOF of the future resurrection. However the Sadducees were not at all inclined to invent your own rather made up slip-sideways solution to get around the PROOF of the resurrection.

    Your problem is that Christ's PROOF only works in the context of MORTAL man. Only then His is puzzle challenge to the Sadducees irrefutable PROOF of the resurrection.

    All you have done here is to show how the made-up alternative you eisegete into the text - FAILS to be "irrefutable PROOF of the resurrection" since in your world the saint are MORE alive as the DEAD than they are as the living - and thus need no resurrection to "satisfy the conditions" of God being the God of Abraham.

    You are pretending that this point is not glaringly obvious by trying to ignore it. But I assure you Christ's "proof" has your argument exposed for all to see.

    Again you shoot your own argument in the foot - because if God is only speaking of immortal souls that NEED NOTHING - no resurrection for him to be the "God of Abraham" then there is NOTHING NEEDED.

    You are using circular reasoning when you imagine that "God is not the God of the dead bodies" -- when in fact "God is NOT the God of the DEAD" - which is a direct reference to patriarchs "DEAD and buried to this day" - and just as God said to Abraham "a father of many nations HAVE I MADE you" --- past tense - while as yet he had no children -- (Romans 4) so also God says to Moses "I AM the God of Abraham" because of that future resurrection.

    How many times shall this same point be proven in your own confessions and in my pointing it out to you?

    Your argument kills Christ's proof of the resurrection - because the Sadducees do not say at the start "We would believe in the resurrection if only there is such a thing as an immortal soul" - you simply "make it up". What is worse you invent an immortal-soul idea not in the text, and one that negates all need of a future resurrection to satisfy the condition "God is NOT the God of the DEAD but of the living".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #67 BobRyan, Mar 24, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 24, 2015
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    These points are really easy to get - and even Sadducees got the point clearly - why do you struggle with Christ's irrefutable proof of the resurrection?
     
  9. targus

    targus New Member

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    Bob Ryan repeatedly demonstrates that the SDA makes a word game of Scripture in order to arrive at the tortured teachings of their false prophet.
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Turns out that Christ's "irrefutable proof" for the resurrection - only works one way - with Sadducees - even when other people complain about it.
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    [FONT=&quot]31 ""But [/FONT][FONT=&quot]regarding the resurrection of the dead[/FONT][FONT=&quot], have you not read…[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Christ is specifically proving the resurrection - nothing else![/FONT]


    [FONT=&quot]Rom4 - [/FONT][FONT=&quot]17[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—[/FONT][FONT=&quot]God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did[/FONT][FONT=&quot];NKJV[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]So What is the result of Christ’s Bible-proof in this debate?[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Matt 22[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]33 When the crowds heard this, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]they were astonished[/FONT][FONT=&quot] at His teaching.
    34 But when the [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] they gathered themselves together.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]It is a “grand-slam”.[/FONT]


    [FONT=&quot]The future resurrection or else "no hope".[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]1Thess 4
    13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]about those who are asleep[/FONT][FONT=&quot], so that you will not [/FONT][FONT=&quot]grieve as do the rest who have no hope[/FONT][FONT=&quot].

    [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Paul points out above that WITHOUT that resurrection “there is no hope”. We would be as those who knew nothing but things in this life only.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]So why all this focus on the resurrection? Because that is WHEN we are “WITH the LORD” which is the promise of John 14:1-3, and 1Thess 4[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]1. Abraham as one of the patriarchs like David - is "dead and buried" even in NT times. Acts 2:29 [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]2. God is not "the God of the Dead but of the living" Matt 22 So then NOT the God of Abraham while "dead and buried" ( if there is no resurrection).[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]3. " I am the God of Abraham" -- so there must be a future resurrection of Abraham.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Rom4 - [/FONT][FONT=&quot]17[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—[/FONT][FONT=&quot]God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did[/FONT][FONT=&quot];NKJV


    [FONT=&quot]Because in the Bible - there is "NO hope" for the saints apart from the future r[FONT=&quot]esurr[FONT=&quot]e[FONT=&quot]ction.

    [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]1Thess 4
    13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]about those who are asleep[/FONT][FONT=&quot], so that you will not [/FONT][FONT=&quot]grieve as do the rest who have no hope[/FONT][FONT=&quot].

    [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Paul points out above that WITHOUT that resurrection “there is no hope”. We would be as those who knew nothing but things in this life only.[/FONT]
     
    #71 BobRyan, Mar 25, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 25, 2015
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    [FONT=&quot]Now let's propose a nice fiction for those who prefer that Christ prove the "immortal soul" doctrine instead of His "but regarding the resurrection of the DEAD" statement.

    1. The Sadducees come to Christ with this challenge "If only your doctrine about an immortal soul were true - then we would imagine that an immortal soul is in misery in heaven with God until those saints get a resurrected body - so then at some point there must be a resurrection to end their misery in non-body fellowship with God (who is spirit) having no physical body"

    2. So then Christ responds "regarding the immortal soul -- have you not read that God said to Moses I AM the God of Abraham long after Abraham had died - which proves the immortal soul. You are free to imagine that such immortal souls in heaven in fellowship with God would be in misery if you wish - but I am not saying that. As far as I am concerned that is the end of the story".

    3. Then Christ comes up with an un-named, never mentioned in Matt 22 argument for the future resurrection of those immortal souls[FONT=&quot], or [FONT=&quot]else leaves it up to the Sadducees to ima[FONT=&quot]gine such an argument for [FONT=&quot]Him.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
    [/FONT][/FONT]
     
    #72 BobRyan, Mar 25, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 25, 2015
  13. PreachTony

    PreachTony Active Member

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    This feels like some serious word acrobatics being played here. To say God cannot say He is the God of Abraham after Abraham had died, simply because "God is not the God of the dead," if off-base. The phrase "God of Abraham" does not necessarily mean "the God recognized by a currently living man named Abraham," but instead means "the God Abraham recognized."

    It's kinda like Illinois calling itself the "Land of Lincoln." Abraham Lincoln has been dead for 150 years, yet Illinois stills claims to be his land. Per your argument of terminology, the phrase "Land of Lincoln" must mean Lincoln is still alive somewhere.
     
  14. targus

    targus New Member

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    Does the SDA pay Bob Ryan by the word for posting here? :laugh:

    And what is with all the CAPS, bolding, italicization, underlining and "quotation marks" where there is no "quote"?
     
  15. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    "could be based on directions from william miller"
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    SDA denies the truths of the soul being immortal, that Jesus died as a substutition for lost sinners, that we are saved by grace alone faith alone, and hold to false revelations of a false prophetess!
     
  17. Rebel

    Rebel Active Member

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    I believe they do hold to substitutionary atonement and that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone. Why do you say they don't?

    If I'm wrong, maybe Bob will correct me.
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    They hold to an Arminian viewpoint on this, as he did not die in the actual palce of lost sinners , in their stead, else all would eventually be saved by God...

    And far mor eimportantly...

    The SDA denies that we are saved by grace alone/faith alone, as none of them have final assurance of eternal life here and now, as God will still be judging them after death to see if they maintained the SDA doctrines well enough to merit keeping eternal life...

    If they fail thist testing, such as by rejecting the sabbath as still binding, then they forfeit life, and will be destroyed...
     
  19. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    It's lekker to have your conversation all to yourself ....
     
  20. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    I am the only true adversary here of Seventh-day Adventists and -ism.

    All you others are here and are presenting all sorts of accusations against the SDAs, not because you are against them; but because you are against "the day The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD".

    With that you all disqualify yourselves as true adversaries of Seventh-day Adventism.
     
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