Shallow Preaching, Cultural Adaptability Behind Baptist Decline, Says Leader

The Bible is a hill worth dying on and thank God the conservatives won. And, thank God the Bible haters were shown the door. Now they have their beloved CBF. Why not spend time promoting your new organization instead of crying over your loss?

 

right

That's right there is some hills worth dying for and the liberal/:thumbsup: :laugh: :jesus: moderates that left would've left over something else anyways. I was in one session at the convention and a small group was arguing over the authority of scriptures and the person of Christ. Try and separate those two!!!

 

Baptisms are probably down because we aren't rebaptizing as many. Way to much of that anyways.:laugh: :godisgood:

 

Actually, what has happened, not just over the last three decades, but going all the way back to the evetns of the early and mid 60's is merely a fulfillment of the final words of the 'charge' of the late, great Dr. B. H. Carroll to Dr. L. R. Scarborough. Although Dr. Carroll made the statement concerning Southwestern Seminary, I suggest especially the last part of it is equally applicable to the SBC, as a whole.

FTR, although I almost never use the word "heresy" in any posts, I will make an exception here, considering these words arose with Dr. Carroll.

In the opinion of some (including myself), heresy did and/or had come in the teaching, especially on the trustworthiness of Scripture. One could not depend very much on the Seminary faculty for whom to take this, for that is whence it came, for the most part, although it was certainly not the case where every individual was teaching this (alleged) heresy, nor was it strictly limited to Seminaries, as perhaps even some of the Colleges and Universities were even more off-base, theologically, than were some of the Seminaries Likewise, they could (or did) not, even if agreed, take very prompt action, due to the organizational constraints of the institutions. While the trustees did take action, in some cases, notably in the case of Dr. Ralph Elliott, it seems to be more of a direct "need to" than "want to" scenario. When these effective teachings were taken to the Convention, and the message started getting through to "the great common people of our churches," there these of a strongconservative/inerrancy' view were able to get the choice clearly defined by the opposing viewpoints.

This certainly was helped along by the efforts of such conservative leaders as Dr. K. Owen White, who described this as "liberalism, pure and simple" in his forceful sermon "Death in the Pot" and Dr. W. A. Criswell's book titled Why I Preach that the Bible is Literally True. While there already had been some previous movement in the direction toward a return to a stance of Biblical "inerrancy", now this movement was growing.

The presentation and opposition to liberalism, which was a moving away from the stance of the New Hampshire Confession of Faith and BF&Ms of 1925 and 1963 did not slow however, but gained much additional strength with the efforts of such as the aforementioned Dr. Paige Patterson, Judge Paul Pressler, and the late Dr. Criswell and Dr. Adrian Rogers, who also were aided by the blockbuster book, The Battle for the Bible, by the late Dr. Harold Lindsell. Dr. Lindsell was unjustly atacked and misrepresented, as well, I'll add.

In summary, there have been many misrepresentations of much, in this. However, the idea that this was nothing more than some political "power play" is an egregious error and misconception, at best. This arose as a theological and Biblical issue, not any political one, at all. In the stated opinions of all the above, one cannot have it both ways. The historic roots of the SBC are based on a Bible that is inerrant. It was and is not merely some matter of interpretation, but is a matter of inspiration and epistomology.

Were there some 'politics' involved, in some instances? Surely. And from all perspectives, I'll add. But the elimination of all the politics in the religious and Biblical world, could not bridge the great divide between the belief that I have that Paul wrote Ephesians, just as is said in the text, and that of the then Louisville Professor, Dr. Peter Rhea Jones, with whom I locked horns with 40 years ago, who taught that Paul was not the author of Ephesians, but some other who attributed his own letter to Paul, and by that I do not mean any amanuensus, either. Incidentally, after I, as a then 20 year old University of KY student (and a Seminary guest), dared to vocally oppose this 'heresy", by expressing such 'impertinence' in the face of one who had an earned Ph.D., (and who had invited any and all of us to join in the class. just as if we were students, at that), my then college pastor was asked to not bring me again to Southern Seminary. (I'm fairly sure that had I attended Southern, I should not have expected an "A" in Ephesians, after that liottle episode.) And I have never been back, but hopefully plan to get to, this summer, as the now President, Dr. Al Mohler, personally invited me at last year's SBC, in effect 'rescinding' my 39 year 'ban'. (Do you also recall that little episode, my then college Pastor, and now fellow Baptist Board member, Joseph W. Smith? Did that jog your memory any further, by chance?)

And all the politics in the religious world [or the pejorative inunendo of "the possible spiritual poverty of his (Dr. Paige Patterson's) own actions over three decades"] cannot possibly serve to produce the Biblical divide betwen the historic view of Exodus that Moses was the author, as the Bible claims, and which view was held by Dr. Criswell and that which I hold, as well, FTR, vs. that of the late Dr. Roy L. Honeycutt who taught there were multiple individual contributors, at some level, to that book, with the so-called 'JEDP' authorship and which was aided by many additional redactors. These above viewpoints are simply not identical views, except for some politics, no matter who may claim this.

A taking over?? No such thing. It was and is a taking back!

Ed

 

And baptisms are up in churches like Joel Osteen's. So what's the point? There will be a falling away from the faith:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition..." (2 Thessalonians 2:3 KJVA)

 

Originally Posted by Tom Butler
Whoa, a new term for me. Could you define the term, and how you see its playing out in concrete form?

Thanks for jogging my memory. I have read that article. Now I remember.

 

I think a lot of people are going to be in for a "rude awakening" when it's time to give an account for every idle word spoken.

If everyone had "ears to hear" the "Comforter" teaching, they'll all be of "One mind, one accord".

Of course the side that is wrong will never "HUMBLE" themselves enough to learn the "TRUTH",

which is the problem is the first place.

 

Wait a minute....the CBFers hate the bible ??? Come on ...how can you say such a thing ???

 

Hmmm? I wonder how this is applicable to the term "talebearer"?

 

Although I agree with your first thought, I find your conclusion to remain arrogant and presumptuous.

What is underlying in your attitude is a practice of tyranny and control limiting those you complain about by denying them the privilege afforded as a Baptist distinctive of the liberty of the believer.

 

Of all the people to chide me about tyranny and control you are the one. My goodness in your view my wife can't even wear a pair of pants without being judged.

 

I agree with you completely. Note the post that says "We won, you lost." Not true. The Baptist denomination lost. Dr. Mohler of the SBS sounded exactly this in the mp3 provided on another thread. "I came in and cleaned house." But the objective was power not clarification of God's message.

My view is that Catholics are at least as much against abortion as Southern baptists but somehow they seem to make this known in a deep felt religious way rather than a mean-spirited way talking about those voting against "God's party" as having the blood of millions of abortions on their hands even though they oppose abortion. Then the SBC was the ONLY major Christian group which openly supported the unjust invasion of Iraq.

The SBC will continue to decline as long as it integrates support of the Republican party into its creed.

 

What is CBF?

I confused.

 

The CBF is the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship. It was formed by some who left the convention after they lost to the conservatives. They have a web site if you want to learn more about them.

 

The words moderate and conservative have been thrown around on this thread as well as a few pejorative remarks and some acronyms that I did not recognize. It would be useful if people who claim to be moderate or conservative, or even liberal, in regards to Scripture and its interpretation would explain just what their view is.

My doctrine, which I believe to be Biblical, would probably best be expressed by the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith. Since that is a little long for posting a summary would probably be the Abstract of Principles of the Southern Seminary which I have posted previously elsewhere and I repeat here for convenience.

When the original charter of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary was adopted in 1858, it contained the following statement which continues as a part of the “fundamental laws.” Every professor of the institution shall be a member of a regular Baptist church; and all persons accepting professorships in this seminary shall be considered, by such acceptance, as engaging to teach in accordance with, and not contrary to, the Abstract of Principles hereinafter laid down, a departure from which principles on his part shall be considered grounds for his resignation or removal by the Trustees, to wit:

I. The Scriptures
The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were given by inspiration of God, and are the only sufficient, certain and authoritative rule of all saving knowledge, faith and obedience.

II. God
There is but one God, the Maker, Preserver and Ruler of all things, having in and of Himself, all perfections, and being infinite in them all; and to Him all creatures owe the highest love, reverence and obedience.

III. The Trinity
God is revealed to us as Father, Son and Holy Spirit each with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence or being.

IV. Providence
God from eternity, decrees or permits all things that come to pass, and perpetually upholds, directs and governs all creatures and all events; yet so as not in any wise to be the author or approver of sin nor to destroy the free will and responsibility of intelligent creatures.

V. Election
Election is God’s eternal choice of some persons unto everlasting life—not because of foreseen merit in them, but of His mere mercy in Christ—in consequence of which choice they are called, justified and glorified.

VI. The Fall of Man
God originally created Man in His own image, and free from sin; but, through the temptation of Satan, he transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original holiness and righteousness; whereby his posterity inherit a nature corrupt and wholly opposed to God and His law, are under condemnation, and as soon as they are capable of moral action, become actual transgressors.

VII. The Mediator
Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, is the divinely appointed mediator between God and man. Having taken upon Himself human nature, yet without sin, He perfectly fulfilled the law; suffered and died upon the cross for the salvation of sinners. He was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended to His Father, at whose right hand He ever liveth to make intercession for His people. He is the only Mediator, the Prophet, Priest and King of the Church, and Sovereign of the Universe.

VIII. Regeneration
Regeneration is a change of heart, wrought by the Holy Spirit, who quickeneth the dead in trespasses and sins enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the Word of God, and renewing their whole nature, so that they love and practice holiness. It is a work of God’s free and special grace alone.

IX. Repentance
Repentance is an evangelical grace, wherein a person being by the Holy Spirit, made sensible of the manifold evil of his sin, humbleth himself for it, with godly sorrow, detestation of it, and self-abhorrence, with a purpose and endeavor to walk before God so as to please Him in all things.

X. Faith
Saving faith is the belief, on God’s authority, of whatsoever is revealed in His Word concerning Christ; accepting and resting upon Him alone for justification and eternal life. It is wrought in the heart by the Holy Spirit, and is accompanied by all other saving graces, and leads to a life of holiness.

XI. Justification
Justification is God’s gracious and full acquittal of sinners, who believe in Christ, from all sin, through the satisfaction that Christ has made; not for anything wrought in them or done by them; but on account of the obedience and satisfaction of Christ, they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith.

XII. Sanctification
Those who have been regenerated are also sanctified by God’s word and Spirit dwelling in them. This sanctification is progressive through the supply of Divine strength, which all saints seek to obtain, pressing after a heavenly life in cordial obedience to all Christ’s commands.

XIII. Perseverance of the Saints
Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere to the end; and though they may fall through neglect and temptation, into sin, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, bring reproach on the Church, and temporal judgments on themselves, yet they shall be renewed again unto repentance, and be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

XIV. The Church
The Lord Jesus is the head of the Church, which is composed of all His true disciples, and in Him is invested supremely all power for its government. According to His commandment, Christians are to associate themselves into particular societies or churches; and to each of these churches He hath given needful authority for administering that order, discipline and worship which He hath appointed. The regular officers of a Church are Bishops or Elders, and Deacons.

XV. Baptism
Baptism is an ordinance of the Lord Jesus, obligatory upon every believer, wherein he is immersed in water in the name of the Father, and the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, as a sign of his fellowship with the death and resurrection of Christ, of remission of sins, and of Abstract of Principles giving himself up to God, to live and walk in newness of life. It is prerequisite to church fellowship, and to participation in the Lord’s Supper.

XVI. The Lord’s Supper
The Lord’s Supper is an ordinance of Jesus Christ, to be administered with the elements of bread and wine, and to be observed by His churches till the end of the world. It is in no sense a sacrifice, but is designed to commemorate His death, to confirm the faith and other graces of Christians, and to be a bond, pledge and renewal of their communion with Him, and of their church fellowship.

XVII. The Lord’s Day
The Lord’s Day is a Christian institution for regular observance, and should be employed in exercises of worship and spiritual devotion, both public and private, resting from worldly employments and amusements, works of necessity and mercy only excepted.

XVIII. Liberty of Conscience
God alone is Lord of the conscience; and He hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men, which are in anything contrary to His word, or not contained in it. Civil magistrates being ordained of God, subjection in all lawful things commanded by them ought to be yielded by us in the Lord, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

XIX. The Resurrection
The bodies of men after death return to dust, but their spirits return immediately to God—the righteous to rest with Him; the wicked, to be reserved under darkness to the judgment. At the last day, the bodies of all the dead, both just and unjust, will be raised.

XX. The Judgment
God hath appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world by Jesus Christ, when every one shall receive according to his deeds; the wicked shall go into everlasting punishment; the righteous, into everlasting life.

I would extend the above statement on Scripture simply because some people twist the logical meaning of words to suit their motives. I believe that the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy [below] is needed to amplify Section I above. I believe it would certainly meet with the view of the author of the Abstract of Principles.

1. God, who is himself truth and speaks truth only, has inspired Holy Scripture in order thereby to reveal himself to lost mankind through Jesus Christ as Creator and Lord, Redeemer and Judge. Holy Scripture is God's witness to himself.

2. Holy Scripture, being God's own Word, written by men prepared and superintended by his Spirit, is of infallible divine authority in all matters upon which it touches: it is to be believed, as God's instruction, in all that it affirms; obeyed, as God's command, in all that it requires; embraced, as God's pledge, in all that it promises.

3. The Holy Spirit, Scripture's divine author, both authenticates it to us by his inward witness and opens our minds to understand its meaning.

4. Being wholly and verbally God-given, Scripture is without error or fault in all its teaching, no less in what it states about God's acts in creation, about the events of world history, and about its own literary origins under God, than in its witness to God's saving grace in individual lives.

5. The authority of Scripture is inescapably impaired if this total divine inerrancy is in any way limited or disregarded, or made relative to a view of truth contrary to the Bible's own; and such lapses bring serious loss to both the individual and the church.

Furthermore, I would expand the definition of the Church [because certain doctrines have been embraced by Baptists since the Abstract was written] to include the statement by the Southern Baptist Convention as follows:

“The New Testament also speaks of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

 

Why do you say they "hate the bible" ?

 

No, the Baptist denomination is far wider than the SBC. However, the SBC won by taking steps back from the brink of heterodoxy. The cost of unbelief was enormous and the SBC was one of the few, if not the only, denomination to come back from so far gone.

That is simply false. It wasn't about power from anything I have read or seen. Of course, I have the advantage of not having a dog in this fight so I can see things a bit clearer than people like you who were bothered by those who thought doctrine was important enough to fight for. It was about power only secondarily as I see it. The conservatives regained power in order to promote biblical doctrine.

 

I remember back in the early 60's there were three liberals got into the Louisville seminary and they were chased out and replaced by evangelical professors. There was quite an uprising at that time in the SBC.

We had something similar at our McMaster University theological school, the original Baptist university. Liberalism was spreading throughout the Convention churches, but it is about 80% evangelical now. It was a long, tedious battle though. Evangelicals became pastors and came from non-denominational schools. Men from our evangelical Baptist schools were just not invited to pastor. That's how the liberals controlled the churches.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Your view is correct. However, in order to do that, the conservatives had to gain control of the SBC machinery. That required the convention to do the same thing the liberals had been doing for many years. They used the electoral process, just as it had been done by the liberals and moderates. I, for one, do not shrink from the view that it was a use of power. But it was power (or authority) given to them by the convention itself.

Was it done perfectly. Of course not. Efforts such as the Conservative Resurgence are never pretty.

By the way, the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod went through the same thing in the 1970s. It wasn't pretty either, but the conservatives prevailed.