Sheep and Goats

Wheee!, finally, you and I agree on something

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches:

for without me ye can do nothing.

No Jesus, No works. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, we agree on something. I'm going to print this out and frame it.

</font>[/QUOTE]Good Idea, ME TOOO

 

What a person believes in the heart, will govern their actions, and those action will manifest what is in their heart, this is why Jesus said: "Let your light shine" and people will glorify God, not you.

We have a local man, who is Catholic, and for 50+ years has visited the Hospitals, Nursing Homes, almost on a daily bases, everyone, without exceptions knows this man, including me.

We always "take a break" when we meet and talk, once he commented that he Hoped" he had done enough to be accepted into heaven when he died, I ask him if he believed in Jesus, he said: Oh yes!

It had never occurred on me that all these years he wasn't working because he was saved but because he hoped to be saved by his works, After explaining to him that faith in Jesus was all he needed to be saved, he answered: "I sure hope you're right".

The "peace with God" that comes with "knowing" you're saved only by faith in Jesus has been denied to this man all these years, living in a state of "limbo", always fearful of his spiritual condition, and why, Church doctrine.

You may not think doctrine matter that much, but as you see, doctrine can "detract" more from God/Jesus than it "adds too".

 

epistemaniac, part of the problem with what you are saying is that "just" and "righteous" are the same words; break out your Greek NT and you will see that. If you are justified at the moment of salvation, then you are also righteous. So, why would you worry about behaving yourself if you're already righteous?

 

"How can we who are dead to sin continue to live in it?"

"The one who has died has been set free from sin."

"If you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."

Why does one who has been set free from sin need to put to death the deeds of the body?

 

Because of conviction by the Holy Spirit and being a new creature in Christ that changes your desires so that you desire to please God.

You live in the power of the HS, not your own flesh. You start in faith and continue in faith (See Gal 3).

You're a Baptist preacher and you deny that Christ's righteousness is imputed upon one when there is belief in Christ?

 

I have done no such thing.

 

I have done no such thing. </font>[/QUOTE]Then what are you suggesting? That, after having been justifed by God and having righteousness imputed to us by God, we have to engage in a process to become more justifed and more righteous by works? Can God's righeousness be surpassed by our works? God's justification and righteousness isn't enough unless we add to it?

I believe everyone here understands the importance of exercising your faith through good works. I think everyone here understands that faith is dead without such works. But we are justified by faith, not deeds. Righteousness is imputed to us by faith, not by deeds. Period. To say that we have to earn justification and righteousness through works is totally unbiblical.

I just realized I said I'd bow out. I apologize - I'll go away now.

 

Hope / J. Jump,

I looked at some of the stuff that you sent to me. I still find it confusing. It appears to be just as systematic and "man-made" as C or A. It certainly is not above the fray - it's just another system of interpretation, an aberrant one at that. You guys can have it, so you'll have to just consider me as one of the many deceived who have fallen away.

Let's circle back at judgment day.

 

Andy everyone's beliefs are a system of interpretation. Your beliefs are no different. My beliefs are no different. Your pastor's beliefs are no different. The pope's beliefs are no different. Everyone's beliefs are based on interpretation.

Bottom line is not everyone is led of the Holy Spirit though. Becuase in the Spirit there is only one Truth. His Truth. It is our duty to allow the Spirit to teach us His Truth. And then when He does we are to share that Truth with others.

If at some point He shows us that something in our belief structure is incorrect then we are to make the necessary adjustments and move on in Truth.

Unfortunatley you do exactly as the majority of others do. You glance at the material and it doesn't make sense right off the bat and so you write it off as untrue instead of studying the matter through.

How can you write it off as untrue when you readily admit that you are still confused. That means you don't understand what it being talked about.

 

J. Jump,

Confusing probably isn't the best word - more like "convoluted". I understand it enough to know that it is poor doctrine. If I have to read and absorb all those articles and books you sent me to be able to accept your system of interpretation, then that eliminates the perspicuity (i.e., clarity) of Scripture. I came to a Calvinist understanding of Scripture through reading the Scriptures. Yes, I have read some Reformed authors, and I've read some non-Reformed authors, too. I've never read Calvin or any of the other weighty systematic theologies, though.

I'm sorry, I forever remain one of the unconvinced. Chalk me up as deceived or whatever you like. I'm not joining the ranks.

 

Let me ask you this. How is it poor doctrine. Where is the false teaching in it?

 

The discussion above with Hope and others is one area of disagreement, to name one.

 

I haven't really looked into the area that Hope of Glory is speaking to in great detail. The information that I sent you had absolutely nothing to do with it.

So what did you see in the information that I sent you that was false doctrine?

 

If you want to discuss information you sent to someone in a private message, can you discuss it in private messages? There's no point in talking about information in the forums that the rest of us haven't seen.

 

Andy is more than welcome to PM me or email me.

 

To me, "convoluted" is saying that salvation is secure, then trying to ignore all the passages that seem to say otherwise, or saying that salvation is not secure and ignoring the ones that say otherwise.

When you confuse the Kingdom and spiritual salvation, that is going to happen. When you use "justification" synonymously with "spiritual salvation", the same thing is going to happen. (Justification has to do with an entrance into the coming Kingdom, not with spiritual salvation, so the two are related.)

 

HoG I have admittedly said in a previous post that I haven't look into what you have been saying in great detail. So with that in mind let me ask you a question.

Salvation by grace through faith not of works (spiritual salvation - securing one's eternal destiny) doesn't have anything to do with the terms justification, sanctification or glorification. Is that right?

Now if that is correct in where you are coming from does the terms justification and sanctification refer to the same thing? If they are different regarding the kingdom can you explain the difference.

Thanks!

 

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (death for sin)

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

If Jesus death covered the sins of the whole world, past, present, future, why wouldn't his death cover any "future sins" a person committed???

And if his death didn't, one sin will condemn you, who is going to die to fulfil the law for that one sin, if Jesus isn't coming back to die again, and him being the only one who can die for sin????

Heb 9:22 and without shedding of blood (death for sin) is no remission. (law not fulfilled)

Who dies to get people out of "purgatory"???

Eternal life means eternal.