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Sheep and Goats

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by pituophis, May 15, 2006.

  1. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I have done no such thing. </font>[/QUOTE]So when is Christ's righteousness imputed on someone?

    When is someone eternally saved? Are these two at the same time or separate?
     
  2. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    I think that you could look at it this way:

    Christ died for your sins, and now when the Father looks at you He sees His Son. The only question that remains to be answered is who does Christ see when He looks at you?
     
  3. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    In my case, I'd guess Curly Joe, since I'm overweight and sometimes buzz what's left of my hair down to Curly's length. Right now it's longer, though, so I'm not sure who he'd see. ;)
     
  4. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
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    In my case, I'd guess Curly Joe, since I'm overweight and sometimes buzz what's left of my hair down to Curly's length. Right now it's longer, though, so I'm not sure who he'd see. ;) </font>[/QUOTE]npet, I hope, for your sake, that you meant to say "Curly", not "Curley Joe", for Curley Joe was an imitator, a pretender, a fake, rejected of both stog (the stoog god) and man; while the original Curly was, indeed, the real thing, truly stoog, brother of Moe and Shemp, the one and only ELECT Curly stoog!!

    May you be granted repentance.

    (Disclamer: The author of this post is aware of the dangers of attempting humor on this forum. Please do not post harsh rebukes.)
     
  5. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Christ sees the same thing as the Father sees, Christ's righteousness in me.

    Do you suggest they look at people differently?
     
  6. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

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    there is a world of difference between being pro life and advocating a Roman Catholic soteriology on a Baptist board... the Protestant movement was born out of the latter, not the former, the issue of abortion at that time was a non-issue, not a point of contention for the Reformers and the Rome they had bidden farewell to.... in other words, a defining characteristic in all Protestant theology was one of salvation by grace through faith alone, and that justification was considered a forensic term whereby the sinner was deemed righteous on account of Christ, Christ's righteousness being imputed to the sinner so that he or she can stand before God fully clothed in Christ's righteousness, a perfect righeousness, the only kind of righteousness that saves. So that means what you are advocating, justification being a process rather then a one time event, is actually a different gospel then the Gospel preached by Protestantism. While I disagree with your postion as being biblical, the main point here is that the historic (and modern) Baptist theologians and creeds would consider the view you are promoting as heresy, and a return to Rome, the great harlot.

    So for thatreason, you should not be posting on a Baptist board.

    blessings,
    Ken
     
  7. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

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    We don’t “worry” about behaving ourselves after conversion, instead we “behave ourselves” because we have been made righteous and for the first time are actually able to behave ourselves. Prior to being justified, none of our works were accounted as “good” in the sense of meriting salvation or God’s favor. Any supposedly good works, even works considered to be “good” as far as the world is concerned, were just splendid sins.

    Secondly, “just” is not always the same word as “righteous”. In Rom 3:8 “just” is used of God’s being fair in His judgments, also in Heb. 2:2;
    G1738
    ἐνδικος
    endikos
    en'-dee-kos
    From G1722 and G1349; in the right, that is, equitable: - just.”

    Further, “righteous” is not always the dikaios word family, eg Heb. 1:8; where “righteous” is the “righteous” scepter;
    G2118
    εὐθύτης
    euthutēs
    Thayer Definition:
    1) rectitude, unrighteousness
    Part of Speech: noun feminine
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2117


    However, I do agree that most times “just” and “righteous” are dikaios/dikaiokrisia, but what is your point? Being declared righteous is not a legal fiction.

    Blessings,
    Ken
     
  8. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    I beg your forgivenes. Curly is the only real Curly. I remember the difference now, and I never liked Curly Joe. Then again, I didn't like Shemp, either, and he was a real brother.
     
  9. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    "Just" and "righteous" are always the same, it's just that the KJV translators did some willy-nilly translating in certain places. Sometimes it was even intentional.

    BTW, I can show you plenty of Baptist literature that presents justification is a process; it's only in the recent past that they have started getting away from it. Mainly, because they equate it with spiritual salvation, which is fallacious.
     
  10. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    Christ sees the same thing as the Father sees, Christ's righteousness in me.

    Do you suggest they look at people differently?
    </font>[/QUOTE]Not necesarily, I don't know of any scripture that says God only sees Jesus when he looks at a believer. I think that is just a way to understand the grace of God in allowing His son to pay for our sins. At the last day, when all mankind is judged according to works, the blood of Christ will take precedence over our own sinful lives, and we will be granted eternal life based on that. But at the judgment seat of Christ does the blood mean that regardless of how we lived our lives, we will automatically be crowned in glory to reign with Jesus?
     
  11. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

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    huh? but I just showed you an exception to your rule... just and righteous are not always interchangable.... though mostly this is the case....

    and please share the Baptist resources that explicitly state that justification is a process... I would especially be interested in any literature that you could provide for the earliest Baptists....

    as far as your saying "it's only in the recent past that they have started getting away from it."

    this is absolutely and manifestly false... either you are extremely misinformed, or you are trying to misinform others...

    The London Baptist Confession of 1677 (so much for the "recent past") says clearly and unequivocally that Justification is NOT a process....

    I. Those whom God effectually calleth, He also freely justifieth,[1] not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous;[2] not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone;[3] not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing Christ's active obedience unto the whole law, and passive obedience in His death for their whole and sole righteousness,[4] they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith, which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God.[5]

    1. Rom. 3:24; 8:30
    2. Rom. 4:5-8; Eph. 1:7
    3. I Cor. 1:30-31; Rom. 5:17-19
    4. Phil. 3:8-9; Eph. 2:8-10
    5. John 1:12; Rom. 5:17

    II. Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification;[6] yet it is not alone in the person justified, but ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.[7]

    6. Rom. 3:28
    7. Gal. 5:6; James 2:17, 22, 26

    III. Christ, by His obedience and death, did fully discharge the debt of all those that are justified; and did, by the sacrifice of Himself in the blood of His cross, undergoing in their stead the penalty due unto them, make a proper, real, and full satisfaction to God's justice in their behalf,[8]; yet inasmuch as He was given by the Father for them, and His obedience and satisfaction accepted in their stead, and both freely, not for anything in them,[9] their justification is only of free grace, that both the exact justice and rich grace of God might be glorified in the justification of sinners.[10]

    8. Heb. 10:14; I Peter 1:18-19; Isa. 53:5-6
    9. Rom. 8:32; II Cor. 5:21
    10. Rom. 3:26; Eph. 1:6-7; 2:7

    IV. God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect,[11] and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification;[12] nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them.[13]

    11. Gal. 3:8; I Peter 1:2; I Tim. 2:6
    12. Rom. 4:25
    13. Col. 1:21-22; Titus 3:4-7

    V. God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified,[14] and although they can never fall from the state of justification,[15] yet they may, by their sins, fall under God's fatherly displeasure;[16] and in that condition they have not usually the light of His countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.[17]

    14. Matt. 6:12; I John 1:7, 9
    15. John 10:28
    16. Psa. 89:31-33.
    17. Psa. 32:5; Psa. 51:1-19; Matt. 26:75

    VI. The justification of believers under the Old Testament was, in all these respects, one and the same with the justification of believers under the New Testament.[18]

    18. Gal. 3:9; Rom. 4:22-24"

    blessings,
    Ken
     
  12. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

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    other early Baptists on Justification;
    Augustus Strong 1907:

    "IV. JUSTIFICATION.

    1. Definition of Justification.


    By justification we mean that judicial act of God by which, on account of Christ, to whom the sinner is united by faith, he declares that sinner to be no longer exposed to the penalty of the law but to be restored to his favor. Or, to give an alternative definition from which all metaphor is excluded: Justification is the reversal of God’s attitude toward the sinner because of the sinner’s new relation to Christ. God did condemn; he now acquits. He did repel; he now admits to favor.


    Justification, as thus defined, is therefore a declarative act, as distinguished from an efficient act, an act of God external to the sinner, as distinguished from an act within the sinner’s nature and changing that nature. It is a judicial act as distinguished from a sovereign act, an act based upon and logically presupposing the sinner’s union with Christ, as distinguished from an act, which causes and is followed by that union with Christ.


    The word ‘declarative’ does not imply a ‘spoken’ word on God’s part, much less that the sinner hears God speak. That justification is sovereign
    is held by Arminians, and by those who advocate a governmental theory of the atonement. On any such theory, justification must be sovereign since Christ bore not the penalty of the law but a substituted suffering, which God graciously and with sovereignty accepts in place of our suffering and obedience.


    Anselm, Archbishop of Canterbury, 1100, wrote a tract for the consolation of the dying, who were alarmed on account of sin. The following is an extract from it: “Question: Dost thou believe that the Lord Jesus died for thee? Answer. I believe it. Question: Dost thou thank him for his passion and death? Ans. I do thank him. Question: Dost thou believe that thou canst not be saved except by his death? Ans. I believe it.” And then Anselm addresses the dying man: “Come then, while life remaineth in thee; in his death alone place thy whole trust; in naught else place any trust; to his death commit thyself wholly; with this alone cover thyself wholly; and if the Lord thy God will to judge thee, say, ‘Lord, between thy judgment and me I present the death of our Lord Jesus Christ; no otherwise can I contend with thee.’ And if he shall say that thou art a sinner, say thou: ‘Lord, I interpose the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between my sins and thee.’ If he say that thou last deserved condemnation, say: ‘Lord, I set the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between my evil deserts and thee, and his merits I offer for those which I ought to have and have not.’ If he say that he is wroth with thee say: ‘Lord, I oppose the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between thy wrath and me.’ And when thou hast completed this, say again: ‘Lord, I set the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between thee and me.’” See Anselm, Opera (Migne), 1:686, 687. The above quotation gives us reason to believe that the New Testament doctrine of justification by faith was implicitly, if not explicitly, held by many pious souls through all the ages of papal darkness."

    Boyce 1887:

    Justification is a judicial act of God, by which, on account of the meritorious work of Christ, imputed to a sinner and received by him through that faith which vitally unites him to his substitute and Saviour, God declares that sinner to be free from the demands of the law, and entitled to the rewards due to the obedience of that substitute.

    I. It is a Judicial Act of God

    That God is its author is emphatically declared by Paul in Romans 8:33; "It is God that justifieth." As he is the lawgiver and judge so must he also be the justifier.

    The act is not one of sovereignty, as is election, because he does not justify merely of good pleasure, but because the demands of the law have been met. Yet his act is free, and of grace, because it is of his own choice that he accepts a substitute, and because Christ and his meritorious work have been graciously secured and given by God himself. See Romans 3:24.

    The virtue of the act consists in its being his judicial act. Any one might perceive or declare the demands of the law to be satisfied upon knowledge of that fact. Any one might proclaim that the rewards of Christ's merit have been secured. But, whether declared of the value and efficacy of Christ's work in itself or of its application to an individual, such a declaration would not be justification. It only becomes so when uttered by God in his capacity as Judge. All others could only recognize or declare the fact. The declaration of the judge sets the sinner free from all demands of the law, and confers upon him all the blessings appertaining to this new condition.

    This judicial act of justification is made necessary because the law has been broken. One who has completely fulfilled the law needs not to be justified. His position before the law is that of one personally just or righteous; not of one that is justified, or declared righteous, or treated as such, though not personally so. He may be said to be justified, because recognized or treated as such, though the ground of such action is that he is personally just. Thus the term "justified" is properly applied to the doers of the law, and that of "just" denied to the mere hearers of the law in Romans 2:13. But while the terms may thus be used of one personally just, he, nevertheless, needs no such justification, because his righteousness is not questionable. His position, like that of those who fully obey human laws, is recognized without any special act affirming it.

    Hence it is that the Scriptures so commonly use the word "just," dikaios, of one who is, in some one or in all respects, perfectly conformed to the law by his own acts, and who is, to that extent, therefore, personally holy, applying the term not to men only or even to Christ, who was made under the law, but also to God himself. See Matthew 1:19; 5:45; 9:13; Luke 23:50; Acts 3:14; 7:52; 22:14; Romans 3:26. This usage has given rise to the opinion of some that justification is not simply a judicial act, but that it involves holiness in the one justified, and in the case of justified sinners an infusion of holiness in the act of justification.

    But that this is an error is obvious,--

    1. From the fact that justification is presented as the opposite of condemnation (Romans 8:33, 34), and not of sinfulness. Condemnation is never spoken of as the infusion of a corrupted nature, and consequently justification would not involve that of a holy nature.

    2. That the justified are not declared in Scripture to be free from sin or possessed of holy natures, but are represented as still struggling against sin, and not only sin which arises from outward temptations, but that proceeding from the motions of sin within.

    3. The change of nature which causes that of character is called in the Scriptures "regeneration," and differs essentially from justification. The former is the special work of the Holy Spirit. The latter is the act of God the Father. That is an effect wrought inwardly, which develops itself in a continuous and progressive process which the Scriptures call sanctification. If justification includes an infused righteousness as the opposite of sinfulness, then it includes sanctification, and there is no ground for the scriptural distinction between them.

    4. The usage of other words in connection with justification shows it to be a forensic act. The term "righteousness," dikaiosune, which, like "righteous," dikaios, is used in connection with personal righteousness, as of God in Acts 17:31, and of Christ "the Faithful and True," Revelation 19:11, and of the martyrs in Hebrews 11:33, and of human obedience to the law in Romans 10:3, 5; Philippians 3:6, 9, is, in connection with God's justification of sinners, applied, though chiefly by the Apostle Paul, to "the righteousness which God bestows or accepts," and which is imputed to the sinner or reckoned to his account.

    Another term, dikaiosis, signifies "the act or process of declaring righteous," viz., justification.

    The word dikaioma, which means "that which is declared righteous," and hence a statute or command, as something which the law of God declares to be a righteous requirement, is used in connection with justification for "the deed by which one declares another righteous, and is partially equivalent to dikaiosis."

    The principal word which is used for expressing the nature of God's action in justification is dikaioo, "to justify," which means everywhere "to declare righteous," "to regard and represent as righteous," and not "to make righteous" in the sense of conferring personal righteousness.

    This usage of terms shows plainly that justification is a judicial act of God, in which he does not confer holiness, but only declares the relation occupied to the law by the one who is in Christ.

    II. The Ground of this Justification

    It is manifest from what has already been said that the justification of the sinner must depend on something not personally his own. The Scriptures teach that it is due not to his own good works but to the meritorious work of Christ which is imputed to him, or put to his account.

    1. They teach us negatively that it is not due to his own good works.

    (1.) They expressly deny that justification can be by the works of the law. Romans 3:20; Galatians 3:11; Ephesians 2:9.

    (2.) They assert that, could it thus have been attained, Christ's death has been useless. Galatians 2:21; 5:4.

    (3.) Sinfulness is declared to be the condition of every man, which excludes the possibility of works untainted by sin. Romans 3:10.

    (4.) The law is said to demand such complete obedience that "whosoever shall keep the whole law and stumble in one point, he is become guilty of all." James 2:10.

    (5.) We are told that "if there had been a law given which could make alive, verily, righteousness would have been of the law." Galatians 3:21.

    (6.) It is likewise stated as necessary to the certainty of attaining salvation that "it is of faith that it may be according to grace." Romans 4:16.

    These statements show that, not only are men not saved by works alone, but not even by works combined with grace. Justification cannot arise, therefore, from the good works of men. Not even has its condition been so modified that a partial obedience can be accepted, whether this stands alone or is supplemented by, or is supplementary to the merits of Christ. Something entirely outside of man must constitute the basis of justification.

    2. The word of God declares this outside something to be the meritorious work of Christ.

    (1) In general

    (a) By declaring that the righteousness of God is connected with our relations to, or belief in Christ. Romans 3:22, 26; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:30.

    (b) By stating that redemption is in Christ Jesus. Romans 3:24.

    (c) By setting him forth as the only foundation of salvation.

    (d) By asserting salvation to be found only in Christ. Acts 4:12.

    (e) By asserting a definite relation between our sin and Christ, and his righteousness and ourselves. 2 Corinthians 5:21.

    (2.) More specifically by connecting the salvation and justification of man with Christ's merits.

    This may be shown.

    (a) In connection with his sufferings, or what is usually called his passive obedience.

    1. Christ is presented as "the Lamb of God," John 1:29, in evident allusion to the sacrificial offerings of the olden days, and Paul speaks of him as one "whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, by his blood." Romans 3:25.

    2. He is presented as one who has died for us. Romans 5:6, 8; 8:34; 14:15; 1 Corinthians 8:11; 2 Corinthians 5:14, 15; 1 Thessalonians 5:10; and specifically as having died for our sins. 1 Corinthians 15:3.

    3. We are said to be justified by his blood (Romans 5:9), and reconciled by his death (Romans 5:10), and by his cross (Ephesians 2:16).

    (b) Our justification is due also to the active obedience of Christ, and not to passive obedience only.

    1. Righteousness involves character, conduct and action, even more than suffering endured as penalty. The sinlessness of Christ is therefore plainly taught, and especially in connection with imputation. 2 Corinthians 5:21.

    2. The gracious salvation he brings is said to establish the law.

    3. He assures us, that he came to fulfil the law. Matthew 5:17.

    4. The obedience of Christ is not only contrasted with the disobedience of Adam, but is declared to be the means by which many shall be made righteous. Romans 5:19.

    It thus appears, that the ground of justification is the whole meritorious work of Christ. Not his sufferings and death only, but his obedience to, and conformity with the divine law are involved in the justification, which is attained by the believer. The question is here sometimes asked, how the active obedience of Christ can avail to us, when he was himself a man and under the law, and owed obedience personally on his own behalf. The answer to this is twofold, in each case depending upon the doctrine of the incarnation of the Son of God. On the one hand, the position was one voluntarily assumed by the Son of God. He was under no obligation to become man. He was not, and could not be made man without his own consent. In thus voluntarily coming under the law, his obedience would have merit to secure all the blessings connected with the covenant, under which he assumed such relations. But besides this, the fulfillment of the law would not simply be that fulfillment due by a mere man, which is all the law could demand of him on his own behalf, so that the merit secured is that due to the Son of God, thus as man rendering obedience to the law. That merit is immeasurable and is available for all for whom he was the substitute."


    It can scarcely be doubted that the early Baptist theologians Charles Spurgeon, Dabney, JL Dagg, Edward Payson, AW Pink and John Gill held the exact same views on justification, namely that it is a forensic declaration, of Christ's righteousness being imputed to the sinner on account of God's sovereign grace, a one time event which secured the sinners salvation for all time.

    see http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/baptist.htm

    blessings,
    Ken
     
  13. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    No, what you showed was where the KJV translators interchanged the words. They translated many things willy-nilly. There's a big difference.

    Right now, I have to go back to work. So, instead of picking apart your lengthy post on the teachings of men, I'll just post a passage of Scripture that contradicts the teaching that you're espousing:

    James 2:24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified (present, passive, indicative; "is being justified"), and not by faith only.

    It's not an event, according to Scripture, no matter how badly you want it to be.
     
  14. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

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    No, what you showed was where the KJV translators interchanged the words. They translated many things willy-nilly. There's a big difference.

    Right now, I have to go back to work. So, instead of picking apart your lengthy post on the teachings of men, I'll just post a passage of Scripture that contradicts the teaching that you're espousing:

    James 2:24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified (present, passive, indicative; "is being justified"), and not by faith only.

    It's not an event, according to Scripture, no matter how badly you want it to be.
    </font>[/QUOTE]You are a riot!! lol....

    I never even quoted from the KJV! I quoted from lexicon:

    Secondly, “just” is not always the same word as “righteous”. In Rom 3:8 “just” is used of God’s being fair in His judgments, also in Heb. 2:2;
    G1738
    ἐνδικος
    endikos
    en'-dee-kos
    From G1722 and G1349; in the right, that is, equitable: - just.”

    Further, “righteous” is not always the dikaios word family, eg Heb. 1:8; where “righteous” is the “righteous” scepter;
    G2118
    εὐθύτης
    euthutēs
    Thayer Definition:
    1) rectitude, unrighteousness
    Part of Speech: noun feminine
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2117"

    Secondly, the point is not even if the Baptists I mentioned are right or wrong. Here is why: you claimed that the doctrine of justification being a process was held by most baptists until recently, I showed you that you are manifestly undeniably mistaken about that. Period. We can talk about how unbiblical your ideas of justification are, I don't care. But understand what is being addressed and please, stick to that point.

    blessings,
    Ken
     
  15. thjplgvp

    thjplgvp Member

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    Wow, and to think I wasted all that money on a major in theology and I could have gotten it free from the BB.

    :D [​IMG]

    "You are a riot!! lol...."


    [​IMG]

    BTW we are justified in Christ at salvation. Jesus did not do away with the law he fulfilled it, therefore we are justified before God in Christ through Christ. Christ’s fulfillment of the law on every level becomes our standing for justification. Outside of Christ we have no standing before a Righteous and Holy God, had we, Christ would not have had to take our place.

    It would seem that many are trying to live by a law that Christ has already fulfilled. The Pharisees of Jesus’ day where ultra righteous but Jesus told them in Matthew 5:20 “For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” You may draw your own conclusions but to me he was clearly pointing to himself based on 5:17. Not their righteousness but his because only Jesus could fulfill the requirements of perfection demanded by the law.

    Just my thoughts on this thread

    thjplgvp
     
  16. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Bingo.
     
  17. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

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    why would you think it was money wasted? ;) I, for one, am very glad for my theological education, both my formal education at Grace College and Seminary, and the preparation it gave me for my ongoing independent study, it has been a great help to me to detect false teaching here at this board [​IMG]

    I agree with you re justification.... btw... and it is the aberrant (Roman Catholic) definition of justification that I was able to detect right away.... so a big thanks and shout out to my peeps and profs at Grace!!! lol [​IMG] [​IMG]

    post tenebras lux!

    sola scriptura!
    sola fide!
    sola gratia!
    solus Christus!
    Soli Deo Gloria!!!

    blessings,
    Ken
     
  18. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    Please show me where I said that. I have said that "many" Baptists held Kingdom truths dear and they are abandoning them, many times. (I know of many formerly Baptist churches that have dropped "Baptist" from their name because so many mainline Baptist denominations are departing from them.)

    But, if I ever said "most", it was inadvertent.

    Please show me so I can correct it.

    Hebrews 1:8: But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [euthutEs; straightness] [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    It should be the , and the word "euthutEs" is literally, "straightness". It is applied directly to God. It is never applied to man in the NT.

    It is found in 20 places in the LXX. 1 Kings 3:6 is interesting: It contains both "righteousness" and "straightness". I wonder why the Holy Spirit would be duplicitous?

    Oh, look! Psalm 9:8 uses both words as well!

    (However, I'm not going to do all your homework for you; you'll have to look at the rest.)

    Oh, OK, one more that uses both: Psalm 11:7.

    (Thayer's and Strong's are based on the KJV, BTW, not on the Greek; so, when you are quoting from them, you are quoting from the KJV.)

    I would just like to close by saying one more thing:

    James 2:24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified (present, passive, indicative; "is being justified"), and not by faith only.

    It's not an event, according to Scripture, no matter how badly you want it to be.
     
  19. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

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    Please show me where I said that. I have said that "many" Baptists held Kingdom truths dear and they are abandoning them, many times. (I know of many formerly Baptist churches that have dropped "Baptist" from their name because so many mainline Baptist denominations are departing from them.)

    But, if I ever said "most", it was inadvertent.

    Please show me so I can correct it.</font>[/QUOTE]you said
    Lord willing, I will get to the rest of your post tomorrow...

    blessings,
    Ken
     
  20. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Christ sees the same thing as the Father sees, Christ's righteousness in me.

    Do you suggest they look at people differently?
    </font>[/QUOTE]Not necesarily, I don't know of any scripture that says God only sees Jesus when he looks at a believer. I think that is just a way to understand the grace of God in allowing His son to pay for our sins. At the last day, when all mankind is judged according to works, the blood of Christ will take precedence over our own sinful lives, and we will be granted eternal life based on that. But at the judgment seat of Christ does the blood mean that regardless of how we lived our lives, we will automatically be crowned in glory to reign with Jesus?
    </font>[/QUOTE]Note that I did not say that when God looks at a believer he sees the Son. You said that.

    When God looks at us, he sees Christ's righteousness imputed to us by faith through Christ's death on the cross.

    We will also be judged on our works and works not for God will be burned away. Jesus will also see our righteousness from him since this is what our salvation is based on.
     
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