Shortened Master of Divinity degree?

If a student's Bachelor's program in Bible or Pastoral Ministry was sufficiently rigorous I'd have no problem with a 60 or 75 credit MDiv (if 15-30 credits of one's B.A. fulfilled some of the MDiv requirements). At least one seminary on the east coast has plans in the works to do something like this, Alliance Theological Seminary in New York. They do this in other fields for example Social Work. BSW students can often do an MSW in half the time.

 

Rhetorician

First, I think many people's motivation is not "Man, get me out of this classroom...I'm tired of learning." It's more along the lines of, "God has called me to ministry...I'm ready to get out there and do it." It's more an impatience to get going than an aversion to learning.

Secondly, my educational experience was as such: I got such a good undergrad in religion that much of my seminary work was repetitive. I cold have cut five of my seminary classes and lost virtually nothing. That's probably not true for everyone.

Thirdly, the "ivory tower" profs I had inspired me much less than those who had been in the trenches of actual church work. The "been there done that" crowd were far more relevant and practical in their applied knowledge. Again, people's experience there would depend on their schools and choices of instructors.

Fourthly, I believe there's been a lack of "day to day" type of practical instruction regarding the nuts and bolts of ministry work. Most ministers I know never received instruction in HOW to baptize someone...HOW to conduct a business meeting...HOW to present a budget...and the like. A course or two in this area (and I did get one, PTL) would be invaluable for many ministers.

Fifthly, in seminary I worked 50 hours per week, never saw my wife, went into debt, had five cars totalled by hit-and-run drivers, and was robbed twice. I wanted to get out of there and have a normal life! I think most folks in seminary simply want life to slow down so that they can enjoy it. It often has less to do with not wanting more education than it does wanting to not be broke, tired, and missing one's family.

Finally, I think you do offer good motivation--we should strive to learn all we can SO THAT we can minister effectively. Sometimes, I think we forget the goal of all them thar books we have to buy and read.

Just my $0.0005 (after taxes).

 

==We are not talking about getting the least amount of education. You can get all needed courses in a 60 hour MA program. You do not need another 30 hours. The careers you cited above are different. Those are things that require a certain amount of time, study, and practice in order to perform the job correctly. When it comes to Theology we must allow for study. However the time will be a lifetime of study and prayer, and the practice will be a lifetime as well. The needed courses (etc) can be fit into a 60 hour program. Keep in mind that not everyone who goes to seminary is going to be a preacher (so some students don't need preaching courses), not all are going to be missionaries (so some students don't need missions classes), not all students are going to be scholars (so some may not need over 12 hours of languages), not all students are going to be administrators (so some may not need church administration courses). You see what I mean? I am saying allow folks to get what they need (which CAN be done in a 60hour MA program) and let them go do what God has called them to do. Sort of like a technical school for theology (etc). This is not about cutting corners it is about cutting out time/energy that could be spent on other things that are more important to the call of the individual student.

Martin.

 

I have heard that argument from the poorest students in class. Those kind of people continue to be poor unless they get a jolt sometime. One time when I heard that one too many times I asked the student why he thought that after my being in the field for 35 years he seeemd to disagree with me. Never heard that again.

It is a proven fact that the students who do not understand the basics will not and cannot go onto more advanced learning and research. I see that all the time in my profession. In fact that is the subject of some research I have done.

The same thing happens in every profession and field of study.

I spent some time studying under one of the best in the world in my field and it has paid me back many times in confidence, satisfaction, financially, publications, attitude, knowledge and assurance that the job is done well. Some of the work I have been hired to do was work that I know I couild not have done unless I had the training. It has also put me in some of the homes of well known people with which I am able to share my faith with. I have not had to go back once to redo any work I did. One of the things I have noticed is that the best in the world today have been taught by those who were the best then. Those today have not had to re-invent the wheel and do a work of trial and error. Instead they are able to build on what they learned from the masters who taught them.

 

Rhetorician:

==No arguments there. People will get out of an education what they put into it. That is why I oppose easy degree programs (oncampus or distance) that don't challenge students. The best teachers I had (in college and seminary) were the hardest. So I am not promoting an easy route or escape. In fact I am promoting just the opposite. While I support a shorter program (60 instead of 90) I believe the program(s) need to be very challenging. Longer programs do not equal better programs.
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==Again I agree. I am refering to the graduate level not the undergraduate level. I have to assume that the person entering seminary have a liberal arts undergraduate education or a Bible college education. Either way they should have a certain number of courses in religion/Bible and they should be active members of their church. What I would prefer is that a person have a four year degree from a secular University in a subject like Sociology, History, or Education (etc) then get a year or so at a Bible College and then enter seminary. That, along with involvement at the local church, should allow them to be prepared for the graduate program(s). I took that route. I got a four year degree in Sociology, went to Bible College for a year, then to Seminary. While I am not going into any offical ministry (pastor, missionary, etc) that set up prepared me very well for Seminary and for my future educational pursuits and teaching career.

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==Maybe some need courses in time management? I wonder if they left ministry because they quit the degree program or did they get burned out because of trying to do too much? Just a thought. Also, and I am not saying this applies to any of your friends, many people go into the ministry for the wrong reasons. Some go for family (mom, dad, granny wants them to be a preacher...it is expected). Others go because they think it is an easy job (wrong) and still others go for other wrong reasons. If a person is not called into the ministry, it does not matter how long or short the degree program is, they will fail in the ministry. Thus I don't see the length of the program as important here. A intense 60 hour graduate program will weed out the non-dedicated (most anyway). I want to focus on the term "GRADUATE" for a moment. I fear that many seminaries don't have real "graduate" level programs. It seems that sometimes the programs are a bit too easy. I understand the reasons for that sometimes but I still believe it to be unacceptable. Graduate level seminary study should be just as academically demanding as medical school or law school. Seminaries should require the MAT or the GRE just like other graduate schools do. Those who can't handle that level of study should remain at the undergraduate level. The undergraduate level offers the same type of degrees. I reference programs at Southeastern (etc).

In Christ,
Martin.

 

I find your comments disturbing. Like you are looking down on anyone that does not get a M.Div and a Doctoral in Ministry. Do you really think we will stop learning once we get out of Seminary? Sounds that way.

 

I do think that a 60 hour M.A. is sufficient for the ministry if a person has an undergrad degree in Bible. In fact, I think the seminaries should award a M.Div. in two years to those who do have a B.A. in Bible.

I could easily have eliminated the "practical" courses from my seminary degree and still have gotten what I needed since I already took homiletics, church planting, administration courses, etc.

 

Rhet,

All of what Baxter says is true. Now what is the best way to get that education. I think a combination of bachelors and masters level courses followed by an intentional one year full-time paid residency under the guidance of a qualified senior pastor in a local church. Emphasize "qualified."

Then on-going cluster groups of pastors where pastoral issues can be discussed monthly.

 

I propose a comprimise. I propose a MDiv with the full 90 hours of teaching by short (5'5" or shorter)theologins.

 

I think you make excellent points and so does Baxter and I truley believe we need to strive to be the best at what we do, but I think some people might spend 30 extra hours in school and never use them and thus have in some ways wasted the time, energy and money in something they will never apply.

 

Ed

 

Paul, I believe there are some institutions that do give credit for Bible College backgrounds with reduced credits required for an MDiv.
Ed

 

I'm currently attending an Assemblies of God bible college in Waxahachie, Texas. Most of my textbooks are written by Baptist scholars and theologians. Also, most of my professors have their doctorate degrees from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. I'm in the process of completing a 72 hour M.Div. degree. A lot of bible colleges and seminaries are switching from 90 to 72 hour M.Div. degree programs. I believe 72 hour M.Div. degree programs can provide quality biblical education when done right. However, most of the 72 hour M.Div. programs I've seen are watered down. In other words, they lack enough coursework in Biblical Studies and Theology to be considered a scholarly degree. Most of the degree plans consisted primarily of practical theology, and required no coursework in Greek and Hebrew. Shouldn't a M.Div. degree program be centered around scholarly coursework in Biblical Studies and Theology???