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Should all archaic words have been left in text of KJV?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Logos1560, Apr 19, 2009.

  1. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Specifically, the KJV men in many occurrences did NOT use the most contemporary terms, which were often already to be found in previous English texts. Perhaps Logos1560 has a list of these words, too.

    Generally, it is recognized that the KJV literary style actually followed an early high Elizabethan English, many aspects of which were already a couple decades out of use by 1600, like the disuse of "ye" (in favor of "you"). Often the alternative wordings of the Geneva or Bishops' Bible probably more closely reflect the vernacular of early 17th century England. Some KJV-perfectionists have gone so far as to state that the language of the KJV is unique and never was spoken in exactly the way it occurs in writing.
     
    #21 franklinmonroe, Apr 21, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 21, 2009
  2. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    Welcome, Harold!
    In your opinion, has anyone been "rude" yet in this particular thread?
    That's what we're here for.
     
  3. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    It was a list that I made from my comparison of the pre-1611 English Bibles and the KJV. It is not a complete list since I keep finding more examples. I copy information from my own computer from my study and research.
     
  4. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    I have found over 30 pages of examples where the KJV makes simpler, revised, or updated renderings in the 1568 Bishops' Bible. Some of those updated renderings likely came from the 1560 Geneva Bible. Here are examples from 2 Kings and 1 and 2 Chronicles.

    2 Kings 2:1 And it chanced (Bishops) And it came to pass (KJV)
    2 Kings 2:8 part the one way (Bishops) hither (KJV)
    2 Kings 2:9 ere I be taken away (Bishops) before I be taken away (KJV)
    2 Kings 2:11 And it fortuned (Bishops) And it came to pass (KJV)
    2 Kings 3:19 every good plat of ground (Bishops) every good piece of land (KJV)
    2 Kings 3:21 was able to put on harness (Bishops) were able to put on armour (KJV)
    2 Kings 4:1 to fet my two sons (Bishops) to take unto him my two sons (KJV)
    2 Kings 4:28 did I not require thee (Bishops) did I not say (KJV)
    2 Kings 4:11 And it fortuned on a day (Bishops) And it fell on a day (KJV)
    2 Kings 5:1 given health unto Syria (Bishops) given deliverance unto Syria (KJV)
    2 Kings 6:9 Syrians are lurking (Bishops) Syrians are come down (KJV)
    2 Kings 6:25 great dearth (Bishops) great famine (KJV)
    2 Kings 6:27 do not succour thee (Bishops) do not help thee (KJV)
    2 Kings 6:32 Be circumspect when the messenger (Bishops) Look when the messenger (KJV)
    2 Kings 7:10 as they were wont to be (Bishops) as they were (KJV)
    2 Kings 9:4 gat him to Ramoth Gilead (Bishops) went to Ramoth-gilead (KJV)
    2 Kings 9:16 Jehu gat up into a charet (Bishops) he arose (KJV)
    2 Kings 10:2 and harness (Bishops) and armour (KJV)
    2 Kings 10:7 threescore and ten (Bishops) seventy (KJV)
    2 Kings 10:15 coming against him (Bishops) coming to meet him (KJV)
    2 Kings 13:17 arrow of health against Syria (Bishops) arrow of deliverance from Syria (KJV)
    2 Kings 15:19 stablish the kingdom (Bishops) confirm the kingdom (KJV)
    2 Kings 17:5 and gat up against Samaria (Bishops) and went up to Samaria (KJV)
    2 Kings 17:14 like to the stubbornness of their fathers (Bishops)
    like to the neck of their fathers (KJV)
    2 Kings 18:4 all to brake the brasen serpent (Bishops) brake in pieces the brasen serpent (KJV)
    2 Kings 18:8 the coasts (Bishops) the borders (KJV)
    2 Kings 18:17 gat them up and stood (Bishops) came and stood (KJV)
    2 Kings 19:4 Peradventure (Bishops) It may be (KJV)
    2 Kings 19:12 mine ancestors (Bishops) my fathers (KJV)
    2 Kings 19:23 lusty fir trees (Bishops) choice fir trees (KJV)
    2 Kings 19:26 the inhabiters of them (Bishops) their inhabitants (KJV)
    2 Kings 21:6 tellers of fortunes (Bishops) wizards (KJV)

    2 Kings 21:16 replenished Hierusalem (Bishops) filled Jerusalem (KJV)
    2 Kings 22:11 And it fortuned (Bishops) And it came to pass (KJV)
    2 Kings 22:19 thine heart did melt (Bishops) thine heart was tender (KJV)
    2 Kings 23:4 the inferior priests (Bishops) priests of the second order (KJV)
    2 Kings 24:15 his chamberlains (Bishops) his officers (KJV)
    1 Chron. 4:41 And these now afore written (Bishops) And these written (KJV)
    1 Chron. 5:18 exercised in war (Bishops) skilful in war (KJV)
    1 Chron. 7:10 pavilions of the Syrians (Bishops) camp of the Syrians (KJV)
    1 Chron. 10:4 his harness bearer (Bishops) his armourbearer (KJV)
    1 Chron. 10:9 his harness (Bishops) his armour (KJV)
    1 Chron. 10:10 his harness (Bishops) his armour (KJV)
    1 Chron. 10:12 fet away the body (Bishops) took away the body (KJV)
    1 Chron. 11:5 inhabiters (Bishops) inhabitants (KJV)
    1 Chron. 13:11 was out of quiet (Bishops) was displeased (KJV)
    1 Chron. 15:3 to fetch the ark (Bishops) to bring up the ark (KJV)
    1 Chron. 15:3 ordained for it (Bishops) prepared for it (KJV)
    1 Chron. 16:3 a flacket (Bishops) a flagon (KJV)
    1 Chron. 17:1 And it fortuned (Bishops) Now it came to pass (KJV)
    1 Chron. 17:11 stablish (Bishops) establish (KJV)
    1 Chron. 19:13 let us play the men (Bishops) let us behave ourselves valiantly (KJV)
    1 Chron. 19:15 gat them into the city (Bishops) entered into the city (KJV)
    1 Chron. 28:1 chamberlains (Bishops) officers (KJV)
    1 Chron. 28:10 play the man (Bishops) do it (KJV)
    2 Chron. 1:1 waxed strong (Bishops) was strengthened (KJV)
    2 Chron. 1:6 And Solomon gat up (Bishops) And Solomon went up (KJV)
    2 Chron. 2:8 I wot (Bishops) I know (KJV)
    2 Chron. 4:10 the great lavatory (Bishops) the sea (KJV)
    2 Chron. 5:9 within the quier (Bishops) before the oracle (KJV)
    2 Chron. 5:11 And it fortuned (Bishops) And it came to pass (KJV)
    2 Chron. 10:16 all Israel gat them (Bishops) all Israel went (KJV)
    2 Chron. 12:13 waxed mighty (Bishops) strengthened himself (KJV)
    2 Chron. 13:3 pickt men (Bishops) chosen men (KJV)
    2 Chron. 13:5 a salted covenant (Bishops) a covenant of salt (KJV)
    2 Chron. 13:7 lewd men (Bishops) vain men (KJV)
    2 Chron. 15:14 shawmes (Bishops) cornets (KJV)
    2 Chron. 18:8 chamberlains (Bishops) officers (KJV)
    2 Chron. 20:20 gat them out (Bishops) went forth (KJV)
    2 Chron. 20:30 was in tranquility (Bishops) was quiet (KJV)
    2 Chron. 24:6 the chiefest (Bishops) the chief (KJV)
    2 Chron. 24:9 the taxation of money (Bishops) the collection (KJV)
    2 Chron. 24:18 came the wrath of God (Bishops) wrath came (KJV)
    2 Chron. 25:16 And it chanced (Bishops) And it came to pass (KJV)
    2 Chron. 27:7 his conversation (Bishops) his ways (KJV)
    2 Chron. 28:22 very time of his tribulation (Bishops) time of his distress (KJV)
    2 Chron. 29:7 quenched the lamps (Bishops) put out the lamps (KJV)
    2 Chron. 29:24 to make satisfaction (Bishops) to make an atonement (KJV)

    2 Chron. 31:1 all to brake the high places (Bishops) threw down the high places (KJV)
    2 Chron. 31:14 the things most holy (Bishops) the most holy things (KJV)
    2 Chron. 32:11 shall rid us (Bishops) shall deliver us (KJV)
    2 Chron. 32:27 And he gat him (Bishops) and he made himself (KJV)
    2 Chron. 32:31 wonder that chanced (Bishops) wonder that was done (KJV)
    2 Chron. 33:19 he was meekened (Bishops) he was humbled (KJV)
    2 Chron. 33:23 had meekened (Bishops) had humbled (KJV)
    2 Chron. 34:19 And it fortuned (Bishops) And it came to pass (KJV)
    2 Chron. 34:20 For because (Bishops) because (KJV)
    2 Chron. 34:27 weepedst before me (Bishops) weep before me (KJV)
    2 Chron. 34:28 all the mischief (Bishops) all the evil (KJV)
    2 Chron. 35:7 thirty thousand by tale (Bishops) number of thirty thousand (KJV)
    2 Chron. 35:11 they slew passover (Bishops) they killed the passover (KJV)
    2 Chron. 35:13 dressed the passover with fire (Bishops) roasted the passover with fire (KJV)
    2 Chron. 35:19 holden (Bishops) kept (KJV)
    2 Chron. 36:14 trespassed wonderfully (Bishops) transgressed very much (KJV)
     
  5. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Although the KJV could be said to have updated many renderings in the Bishops' Bible, the KJV kept also keep a good number renderings from the Bishops’ Bible at other places where another pre-1611 English Bible already had simpler, clearer, more up-to-date, or perhaps more accurate language. Therefore, the first rule given the KJV translators may be responsible for some of the words used with a now archaic or obscure meaning, some of the less clear or more difficult words, a couple possibly anachronistic words, or some of the archaic words that are found in the KJV. The updating or revising in the KJV could be considered inconsistent since words updated in a number of cases were not updated every time they were used in the pre-1611 English Bibles. It would be possible that the archaic words were overlooked in some cases or perhaps they were sometimes intentionally kept.


    Here are some examples from the book of Genesis. Every earlier Bible that has a certain rendering is not always listed.


    Gen. 1:28 fill (Tyndale’s, Coverdale’s, Geneva) replenish (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 9:1 fill (Tyndale’s, Coverdale’s, Matthew‘s) replenish (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 9:13 sign (Geneva) token (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 11:4 Come (Coverdale’s) Go to (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 11:28 where he was born (Coverdale’s, Matthew‘s) of his nativity (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 14:3 valley (Coverdale’s) vale (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 16:6 dealt roughly (Geneva) dealt hardly (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 19:1 in the evening (Geneva) at even (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 19:29 wherein (Geneva) in one of the which (Bishops’) in the which (KJV)
    Gen. 21:26 know (Geneva) wot (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 22:1 prove (Geneva) tempt (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 24:5 What if (Geneva) peradventure (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 24:21 till he knew (Coverdale’s) to know (1599 Geneva) to wit (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 24:55 maid (Geneva) damsel (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 24:57 ask her consent (Geneva) inquire at her mouth (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 24:63 toward the evening (Geneva) at the eventide (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 24:64 lighted down from the camel (Geneva) lighted off the camel (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 25:7 seventy and five (Geneva) threescore and fifteen (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 27:15 clothes (Geneva) raiment (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 27:28 wheat (Geneva) corn (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 27:41 thought in his mind (Geneva) said in his heart (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 29:14 a month long (Coverdale’s) space of a month (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 31:29 yesterday (Coverdale’s) yesternight (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 31:42 yesterday (Coverdale’s) yesternight (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 34:22 to (Coverdale’s) for to (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 37:14 valley (Coverdale’s) vale (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 37:22 deliver (Geneva) rid (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 39:8 knoweth (Geneva) wotteth (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 40:4 prison (Coverdale’s) ward (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 41:5 full (Coverdale’s) rank (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 41:36 provision (Geneva) store (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 41:42 garments (Geneva) vestures (KJV)
    Gen. 41:49 wheat (Geneva) corn (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 41:54 famine (Geneva) dearth (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 42:25 wheat (Geneva) corn (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 44:15 Know (Geneva) Wot (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 45:6 plowing (Coverdale’s) earing (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 46:15 These are (Coverdale’s) These be (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 46:27 seventy (Geneva) threescore and ten (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 47:29 near (Geneva) nigh (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 50:3 seventy (Geneva) threescore and ten (Bishops’, KJV)
    Gen. 50:15 It may be (Geneva) peradventure (Bishops’, KJV)
     
  6. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    Another factor to be considered at least in the New Testament is the fact of the influence of the 1582 Rheims New Testament on the KJV. At times the KJV may seem more archaic than the earlier pre-1611 English Bibles because of its use of Latin-based renderings taken from the 1582 Rheims. Perhaps surprisingly the 1582 Rheims actually could have contributed some more up-to-date renderings than found in the pre-1611 English Bibles in other cases.

    Here are examples from the Gospel of Luke.

    Luke 1:80 wilderness (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) deserts (Rheims, KJV)
    Luke 6:49 fall of that house (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) ruin of that house (Rheims, KJV)
    Luke 9:1 heal (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) cure (Rheims, KJV)
    Luke 10:14 be easier (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) be more tolerable (Rheims, KJV)
    Luke 12:26 remnant (Tyndale’s, Matthew’s, Great, Whittingham’s, Geneva, Bishops’)
    other (Coverdale’s) rest (Rheims, KJV)
    Luke 12:27 royalty (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) glory (Rheims, KJV)
    Luke 12:27 clothed (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) arrayed (Rheims, KJV)
    Luke 12:29 ask (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) seek (Rheims, KJV)
    Luke 14:28 perform (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) finish (Rheims, KJV)
    Luke 15:14 dearth (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) famine (Rheims, KJV)
    Luke 19:4 wild fig (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) sycomore (Rheims, KJV)
    Luke 19:21 strait (Tyndale’s, Matthew’s, Great, Whittingham’s, Geneva, Bishops’)
    hard (Coverdale’s) austere (Rheims, KJV)
    Luke 19:22 strait (Tyndale’s, Matthew’s, Great, Whittingham’s, Geneva, Bishops’)
    hard (Coverdale’s) austere (Rheims, KJV)
    Luke 19:23 vantage (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) usury (Rheims, KJV)
    Luke 21:4 superfluity (Tyndale’s, Matthew’s, Great, Whittingham’s, Geneva, Bishops’)
    excess (Coverdale’s) abundance (Rheims, KJV)
    Luke 21:5 garnished (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) adorned (Rheims, KJV)
    Luke 21:20 besieged (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) compassed (Rheims, KJV)
    Luke 21:20 host (Tyndale’s, Coverdale’s, Matthew’s, Great, Bishops’)
    soldiers (Whittingham’s, Geneva) army (Rheims) armies (KJV)
    Luke 21:34 overcome (Tyndale’s, Matthew’s, Great, Whittingham’s, Bishops’)
    overlade (Coverdale’s) oppressed (Geneva) overcharged (Rheims, KJV)

    Luke 22:30 seats (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) thrones (Rheims, KJV)
    Luke 23:19 insurrection (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) sedition (Rheims, KJV)
    Luke 23:32 evil doers (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) malefactors (Rheims, KJV)
    Luke 23:39 evil doers (Tyndale’s to Bishops’) malefactors (Rheims, KJV)
    Luke 24:8 remnant (Tyndale’s, Matthew’s, Great, Whittingham’s, Geneva, Bishops’)
    other (Coverdale’s) rest (Rheims, KJV)
     
  7. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    I am not sure whether it would be accurate to say that "the KJV was the most modern English BV when it was made." It may be possible that it was in the most up-to-date English overall although either Tyndale's or the Geneva could possibly be ahead of it overall.

    At least it is very obvious that Tyndale's, the Geneva Bible, or one of the other pre-1611 English Bibles used more up-to-date English in some renderings or in some verses than the KJV used.
     
  8. Tater77

    Tater77 New Member

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    Yes it is. But people must understand that accuracy. The sad fact of human nature is that you must tell people things in exact words that they understand. You sadly cant depend on everyone getting a concordance or dictionary to look up hard words. Depend on "people" to do the smart thing and you will be disappointed 9 out of 10 times.

    I have a good friend who is hardcore KJVO and he actually believes in the mythical unicorns because "its in the Bible". You did the right thing by looking up words, most however, will not do the same.
     
  9. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    For the part the 1611 team borrowed from previous English translations of the 16th century. So KJV-speak is not that unique. However, I would say that spoken English from that era didn't resemble the style found in the KJV.

    The awkward English found in the NKJ and ESV has not been a spoken form of the language either.
     
  10. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    I'll certainly agree with that. I've had threads dedicated on the very premise that many selections from Tyndale's translation are more modern than KJV-speak. William Tyndale wanted the Bible written in the common vernacular. The KJV wasn't put together with that purpose in mind in actual practice.

    The NKJ and ESV are certainly not written in contemporary language either.
     
  11. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf New Member

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    Kudos to you for doing your own research.

    However, I would say that your statement "Many words used in the KJV have specific meanings which newer words do have the same meaning in most cases, but not in all cases. The newer words carry most of the meaning, but alter it sometimes and according to the culture of the person reading them may suggest something different than what the words truly mean" is ambiguous.

    "Meanings" (or another good word is "interpretations") ALWAYS depend upon the context ("culture" to use your word) of the reader and suggest different things to different readers. Most readers, I dare say, will read "at face value" and NOT take the time to do their own research into the "specific meanings" of words with which they are familiar enough. "Unicorn" and "quick" come to mind here as examples.

    One could also say that "Many words used in the NAS have specific meanings which newer words do have the same meaning in most cases,... (etc.)" also.
     
  12. Harold Garvey

    Harold Garvey New Member

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    Ambiguous Equilibrium. it is a practice we should learn when it comes to discussing meanings. Not everyone understnds the same terms the same way due to cultures which apply them differently.

    What I have found is that a misunderstanding happens when one applies reason from their culture in opposition to other cultures. What some one says to us may offend us by our culture's teaching, ye it is perfectly received in another culture altogether. That is where the equilibrium comes into play, addressing the ambiguity and displacing the misconception.

    What words we find in the KJV have a cultural bias yet they are understood according to that culture's usage, not demanding the usage to fit our culture.

    An objection is then over-ruled as it requires subjection to our culture. We MUST make allowances for other usage to be able to communicate reasonably.
     
  13. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Actually, the translators didn't know what the Hebrew "re'em" meant, and they still don't. They just know it's a large, powerful herbivore of some sort. "Unicorn' seemed a natural choice cuz the mythical horse-like animal was much-more-powerful than a horse, and the early translators had no reason to believe it didn't exist.

    The extinct animal in the area was the AUROCH, a large, powerful species of ox, which was very aggressive. And "wild ox" in later versions is at least just-as-correct as "unicorn".
     
  14. Harold Garvey

    Harold Garvey New Member

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    Not as the defintion shows. In 1611 the unicorn wasn't understood to be a mystical beast but the wild ox.

    Taking the word for granted in one of the biggest mistakes the casual reader can make. The use of "unicorn" in the text proves this to be the reality of those types of mistakes.

    I find it amusing you would know 398 years later what the translators were thinking.:laugh:
     
  15. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    What is the evidence that shows that the KJV translators used the rendering "unicorn" to mean "the wild ox?"

    There was a picture of a unicorn in the 1611 edition of the KJV in the Royal Coat of Arms of King James I, and that picture was of the "mythical" beast.

    In the 1680's or later at least one book or commentary maintained that the Hebrew word reem could have referred to some type "ox." A good number of Bible scholars from the 1700's until this day consider the Hebrew word reem to refer to "the wild ox." Identification of the Hebrew word reem with "the wild ox" is not evidence that the rendering "unicorn" was intended to mean "wild ox."
     
  16. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe Active Member

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    The first comprehensive naturalist catalog was publish just 50 years before work on the AV began. Swiss naturalist Konrad Gesner wrote Historiae Animalium (1551-58 & reprinted in 1587) which depicted the unicorn among ordinary and strange (but considered genuine) living animals. Remember that most European people at this time had never seen a real elephant or giraffe either. Common belief in the possibility of a unicorn species (even if extinct) persisted into the 17th century and beyond. English cleric Edward Topsell publsihed The History of Four-footed Beasts (1607) which also featured the unicorn.
     
    #36 franklinmonroe, Apr 28, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 28, 2009
  17. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Batman vppon Bartholome (1582) p. 378:
    "There be many kinds of vnicornes, . . . . [including] "one horned Oxen".
     
  18. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf New Member

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    Interesting- it appears to be a dictionary or encyclopaedia quotation. Is that correct? Any possibility of posting the whole context?
     
  19. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Correct, s. v. "De Rinocerote", describing the various animals (rhinoceros, monoceros, etc.) that were called unicorns.
     
  20. Tater77

    Tater77 New Member

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    It may mean a rhino or ox but idiots still think it means the mythical unicorn, so it needs to be changed.
     
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