Should Evangelical Seminaries Drop ATS?

Should evangelical seminaries drop their ATS accreditation?

I believe the answer is...yes. All evangelical seminaries should, without warning, drop their ATS accreditation. Why?

The main reason I have for this is that ATS restricts its schools. For example, if you read a catalog from an ATS accredited school most likely you will read something like this:

"the prerequisite master's degree (MDiv for DMin, MRE or MACE for DedMin) from an ATS accredited school, or its equivalent." pg74, NOBTS catalog.

Some ATS schools will only accept degrees/transfer credits from other ATS accredited schools! That is an outrage! That would be like SACS saying it will only accept degrees from SACS accredited schools, or TRACS, or any of the others doing the same thing. As far as I know, no secular accrediting agency is so silly with its requirments. I have a relative who has done work with SACS before (accrediting schools, etc). When I talked to him about ATS he said it all made no sense. If a school is accredited by a recognized accrediting agency there should be no problem in transfering degrees/credits.

Secondly ATS restricts the use of distance education and extension campuses. Many seminaries would like to offer distance education degrees but cannot because of ATS. ATS will only allow a certain number of hours to be earned through distance learning. Meanwhile schools that are accredited by TRACS and SACS are doing away with on campus requirements (ie..Liberty, East Carolina, NC State, etc). In fact the Higher Learning Commission of the North Central Association is in the process of giving full accreditation to Trinity College of the Bible and Theological Seminary (a total distance ed program). Why is ATS going backwards when the others are going forwards?

ATS also does not like extension centers, and requires on campus time for those students as well. Because of this seminaries are having to create week long module classes so that those who need to use the extension centers/distance education can meet ATS's silly on campus requirments.

Yes, I used the term "silly" because that is exactly what it is. In fact ATS is "backwoods" and "outdated". At a time when distance education is growing and becoming better and better, ATS is working as hard as it can to keep its schools from growing with the times. What will the results be? In all fields, not just theological education, schools that don't offer complete distance learning programs will began to lose students. In fact, it is my opinion that this may already be happening. It would be interesting to know, for example, the number of students at Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary/Liberty Unversity and compare that to the number of students at Knox or NOBTS, or Regent. I am sure that schools such as Liberty are growing faster than those schools that, because of ATS, are stuck in the mud of yesterday.

I understand that some people don't like distance education. However I also understand that some people don't like computers. Not liking something is no excuse to be ignorant of it. ATS needs to come into this millennium, it needs to grow up. Otherwise it, and its schools, will fade away. This is not my opinion, this is fact. Anyone in education who is familiar with this subject will agree: Schools that don't offer degrees (mainly graudate) through distance learning will start to be left behind.

Just ten years (1995) ago there were very few good distance education programs. Now, just ten years later, there are many. Universities, seminaries, community colleges, and technical schools are all offering entire degree programs via distance learning. If that is where we are today in 2005, imagine where we will be in ten more years (2015)? And what will become of ATS and its cult of anti-progress schools? Well they will either change or they will be thrown into the historical dump of irrelevency. That is not my opinion that is fact. To avoid this all evangelical seminaries should drop ATS.

Now I realize that some schools, apart from ATS, just don't like distance learning. Thats fine, but again I think they need to be aware of this fact: Like it or not, distance education is the future of higher education. No it will not do away with classical schools but it will become a major force in education. Schools that fail to keep up will, like ATS, be thrown into the dump of historical/educational irrelevency.

There is no reason (no valid excuse) for New Orleans, Southeastern, Regent, Dallas, or any other major school not to be offering degrees via distance learning. The fact that they are not, due to ATS restrictions or institutional ignorance, is sad.


Martin.

 

Evangelical seminaries would be insane to decline their ATS accreditation. ATS accreditation is the gold standard in theological education. ATS schools will not lose a significant amount of students for that very reason.

==If ATS fails to change that will change... I assure you. At this time ATS is going backwards and sooner or later (if not already) the results of this will catch up with them. Over time these schools will start losing new students to the more up to date schools.
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People don't always just want an easily obtained degree--they want a degree they know people will accept. One thing that is guaranteed is that if you obtain an ATS accredited degree, your degree WILL be accepted.


==That is the mind-set that is causing the problems, in fact it maybe about ten years out of date. SACS, and other regionally and national accrediting bodies (US Dept of Education approved), are accepting distance education. And nobody can say that degrees from NC State, East Carolina University, or Liberty University are not accredited or widely accepted. Each of those schools is accredited by SACS and at least one other recognized accrediting body, and each of those schools offers degrees via distance education with little/no campus requirments. Also nobody can accurately say a distance education degree from one of those schools, or other accredited schools, is "easily earned".
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A problem with distance education is that you cannot as easily ensure the quality of the education.

==Not true. The school, and others, can and do monitor course requirments/quality. That is why reginal accrediting bodies such as SACS allows for distance education. They know that quality can be eqaully ensured. On campus is no different. If a student will cheat off campus, they will cheat on campus and there is little a school can do to stop them (unless they are caught).
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In person, you have the library right there; the professors (not adjuncts) can see their students and can conduct in-person exams, etc.


==Libraries can be accessed on line now and students can request hard copies of books (etc). There are also public libraries and University/College libraries that will allow students from other schools to use their resources. Test/exams via distance education can be supervised through a qualified proctor (educator, etc). Tests/quizes can be given online with time-limits/restrictions set up to not allow cheating. Also with schools such as Liberty, the same profs who teach on campus teach the online courses.
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As far as ATS only accepting other ATS schools... this requirement is not so terrible. It is quality assurance.

==So ATS is claiming that SACS schools are not quality? So regional accreditation means nothing to ATS? They view themselves as being better than the others? Pride. If that is true why did ATS seek/gain federal (Dept of Ed., etc) approval? Why are they better than the others?
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The main standard in undergraduate education is Regional accreditation, and often these schools will only accept regional accreditation. ATS is the national equivalent of RA. For a school not to pursue ATS accreditation is in a predicament, just as one who does not pursue RA is. If they do not have ATS accreditation, then they must rely solely on their reputation--which can be hit or miss.

==Not true. There are many high-level seminaries/graduate schools that do not require ATS accreditation. In my survey of seminaries most stated that they only require reginal accrediation. Some of these schools were: Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary, Moody Bible Institute, Philadelphia Biblical University, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary, Wheaton College, Regent University, Liberty University, and Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. Interestingly enough some of those schools, which accept ra only degrees, are also ATS. Maybe that is because they are both ra and ATS, I don't know.

One can go real far without ATS, as long as one has regional accrediation. Also schools that have RA and offer degrees via distance education do not note on the degree/transcript if the courses were taken online/on-campus. Few will question a degree earned at Moody, or Liberty, or East Carolina, or most other RA schools that offer distance learning programs.
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Personally, if any school dropped their ATS accreditation, I would never go there.

==This is where we differ. However I will predict that ATS will, in the next ten years, change their view of distance learning. They already allow about half of a Master degree to be earned via distance ed. Once they see the need they will drop that requirement. ATS will not "be thrown into the dump of historical/educational irrelevency". It is a possiblity but I doubt they will let that happen. They will change when they see the need. Just like the regional bodies have done.

The issue with distance learning is no longer about quality, now it is just people who refuse to let go of the "old ways".

Martin.

 

They do have extension campuses. Distance learning is a joke by compoarison to in class learning. Much is learned with the interaction between students and professors.

==So you are saying some degrees earned at NC State University, East Carolina University, Liberty University, and other schools are jokes? You are saying that SACS, and other reginal accrediting bodies, are giving approval to jokes? That is the logical conclusion of your above statement (like it or not). There can be interaction between staff and students. There have been a few inventions that enable this: webcam, email, B.Boards, telephones, dvd, cd, tapes etc.
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If all you needed was a computer then why not just plug in a video or DVD. Ever tried to teach an online course? It is much more work than in class. When a student asks a question in class everybody who is there hears the question and answer.

==O, I am so sorry that this requires teachers to work hard. O, the crime! That is no excuse.
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A friend of mine who taught some online courses at SWBTS did it for awhile but because it took up so much of his time answering each question via Email he will never do it again.

==A teacher is concerned with helping students learn (regardless of the format). Your friends problem was probably the schools fault and not his own fault or the formats fault (distance learning).
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His time was much better spent preparing the lessons for the students. A good professor will spend about 4 to 5 hours preparing a lesson for each hour in class. So if the average professor teaches 12 hours he will spend about 60 to 72 hours preparing and in class. So where do you propose they come up with the money and time ot offer online courses such as Greek and Hebrew?

==They do at schools like Liberty. O, I am sorry. Liberty University, one of the fastest growing Christian Universities/Seminaries in the nation (and the SBC), a fully reginally/nationally accredited school, a school that Dr Paige Patterson (and Daniel Akin) has preached at and praised, a school that has its graduate degrees fully accepted by Southwestern/Southeastern, etc, is a joke...opps,,,sorry.

Seriously the school should give profs a good balance (online and oncampus) so they don't get too burned out as your friend did. That what most Universities, community colleges, techincal schools, and seminaries that offer external degrees do.
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The courses I have seen offered online can be read in a book.

==That is not really true, is it? I can personally testify that your statement is not usually true. I have taken classes at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary and I transfered to Liberty. SEBTS was on campus, Liberty online. Liberty's online program is much tougher than SEBTS on campus. I also am a graduate of UNC (on campus) and I would say the same thing. I have friends who have earned degrees (online) from major universities and they would STRONGLY disagree with you.

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They don't need anyone to help them.

==Wrong. There is alot of interaction between profs, advisors, and students (and between students).
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A student who will sacrifice to go to a campus is usually much more serious about his education than students who go to a local school or study online.


==Wrong. Many times online learning takes much more discipline, time, and effort than the traditional method. I know this is true with the programs I know of. As for serious. Well my friend I am very serious, very serious. I had personal reasons for making my choice, as do most who opt for distance learning. I have not been cheated, and I have learned alot, and it has not been easy (as you seem to think). The same can be said for everyone else I know who does distance programs from accredited schools. Your statement is false, offensive, and out of date.
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Why should education be any different today than it was many years ago.

==Because technology changes, lives change, and culture changes. Schools, like everything else, must adjust to these changes (w/out compromising substance of course). Many schools are doing this successfully and the accrediting bodies (most but ATS) realize this.

Also this opens up education to more people. That is a good thing.
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It is a fact that students are not as willing to study as their parents once were.

==That is not an across the board fact.
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Just imagine is you had say 100 students and tried to answer their Emails. Teachers are there to teach not answer Emails.

==My stepfather, a professor at a major state University, who teaches online and campus classes does that everyday. As do several of my friends who teach at other colleges. Sorry again that is not a valid excuse.

Martin.

 

"While I support LRS' pursuit of Regional Accreditation and what it will do for acceptance of LRS degrees, I cannot help feel it is a bit of a sell out to secular accreditation. With Christian accreditation agencies such as TRACS, ATS, AABC it would seem that supporting the growth and continued acceptance of and improvement of agencies like this is in the best interests of the cause of Christ."

==I fully agree. However I think it is, for now, the "nature of the beast" that Luther Rice will do much better with regional accreditation. Many of the schools I surveyed said they would not accept TRACS only degrees or would only accept them on a case by case basis. However others do accept TRACS only. When Luther Rice gains regional accrediation, and they will, their acceptance rate will be near 100%.

Btw, schools that accept Luther Rice credits/degrees are:
Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary (accepts only LR degrees/credits earned on campus at this time)
Moody Bible Institute
Philadelphia Biblical University
New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary (undergrad only)
Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary
Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary (on a case by case basis)
Wheaton College (if coursework is relavent to degree program)
Trinity Evangelical Divinity School (case by case)
Regent University (case by case)
Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary

However several schools said no:
Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
Reformed Theological Seminary
Duke Divinity School
Samford University/Beeson Divinity School
Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary (said generally no, but they consider it on a case by case basis).

All of the "no" schools, however, made it clear if Luther Rice gained regional accrediation they would accept degrees/credits from that school. So RA will help Luther Rice and Southern Evangelical.

Martin.

 

I sense your genuine frustration. I can't speak for NC State or ECU, but you will be hard pressed to find very many people who would accept the notion that an online course at Liberty is as hard as a classroom course at Southeastern. That may be your experience, and I'm not doubting it at all. But it is going to be a hard sell to many people.

==I think your right. It will be a hard sell for those who don't know anything about it. However all of the major seminaries are offering some level of online courses and I doubt many would be willing to say that those courses are easy. Those who think they are should try one.

Martin.

 

It's a matter of perception witout knowing first hand. Distance learning = correspondence courses for many, which is not the case at all.

==True. Alot of people make that mistake, alot. I think gb93433 makes such a mistake in their post above when they say, "Distance learning is a joke by compoarison to in class learning...The courses I have seen offered online can be read in a book. They don't need anyone to help them.". Such a statement is highly inaccurate and very out of date. You are right those who have no personal experience may not have the perspective.
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TEDS was "easy" compared to LU's M.A. in counseling, and TEDS is a highly esteemed school! It was my opinion that LU was overcompensating for being "distance learning."

==Liberty is great and I thank God for them everyday. Thanks to them I am literally one class away from getting my MAR. I could not finish at Southeastern (due to personal circumstances) so I transfered to Liberty.

Liberty is harder than on campus classes at Southeastern (and UNC where I got my BA in sociology). Liberty uses the same text-books, in their distance programs, that they use on campus and that other schools use. The course load, in Liberty's distance learning program, is heavier than the on campus programs.

I have enjoyed it. In some of the classes I have really enjoyed have the dvd/vhs lectures, in other classes those same lectures bored me. Liberty, in that way, makes it just like sitting in a classroom.
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I prefer taking courses on campus because I like the interaction, but not everyone needs that to learn. Therefore distance learning is a viable and legitimate option for many.

==I would love to attend Liberty on campus. However at this time that is just not going to happen, and that is out of my control. God has opened this door for me and I am walking through it.

I am eternally greatful to Liberty for obeying God and therefore allowing me (and many others) to do what God has called me to do. Once I finish my MAR (this summer) I will get my MDiv. from Liberty through their distance learning program. After I finish my MDiv I should be finally able to move to campus and, Lord willing, I will be able to attend Liberty or Southeastern on campus and get my ThM. and then a PhD. That will all happen if the Lord wills it.

In Christ,
Martin.

 

You said:
In my previous post I did not intend to say all distance learning was bad. Some programs may very well be quite good. I trust that LU's program is quite acceptable. I'm not worried about schools such as LU.

==I am glad you have clarified your earlier statement. Thank you.
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I'm concerned with smaller, less-known schools. Many schools will accept non-ATS schools if they have a good reputation for academic quality. However, ATS makes me feel better the less-known schools because with ATS, I know these schools are legit.

==I too am concerned with the rise of unaccredited, degree mill, distance learning (in all fields but mainly theology). However we should be careful to make a great distinction between them and schools like Liberty, and a few others. Some of those "other" schools like Southern Evangelical and Luther Rice are not regionally accredited yet (though LR has started the process with SACS) they are nationally accredited (TRACS). Their programs are solid and many regionally accredited schools accept some credits or full degrees from those two schools. Personally as long as a school is accredited by a department of education recognized accrediting agency I am comfortable with it as being quality (ATS, TRACS, SACS, etc). It does not matter if the degree was earned on campus, online, or at a extension center. As long as it is an accredited program. However, as a general rule, I would rather regional accreditation(SACS, etc). That is because such has wider acceptance.
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I know this evidence won't persuade anyone else, but I'm a bit cautious about adjuncts.

==That can vary from situation to situation. Like some regular professors there are good adjunct profs and bad ones. When I was at university I took a class on the sociology of drugs (or something like that). It was a sociology/criminal justice combo type class (useful for both majors). While it was certainly interesting the professor (a full time professor) stunk. There were days he would stop in the middle of the lecture, close his book, and announce that he was tired of teaching and so the class would be dismissed. This was at UNC!! So we need to be careful before we make blanket statements about the quality of professors and programs. Some distance education programs are great, others stink. Some full time profs are great, others stink. Some adjunt profs are great, others stink. But I guess that is just life......


In Christ,
Martin.