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Should God have compassion?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by BobRyan, Sep 5, 2005.

  1. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Hey TS,

    I've read the OP for what must be the 50th time, and it still does not say "Shouldn't God have compassion". It says, and I quote:
    "Should I not?" means "is it wrong for me to?" "Should God?" means "is God obligated to?" Those are very different questions. God is not telling Jonah in chapter 4 that He is obligated to have mercy on Nineveh.
     
  2. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi J Authur;
    You're seeing what you want to see in scripture and what you see just isn't there.
    I agree Jonah was elected and sent to the ninevites however this in no way elects the Ninevites.
    I never said God cannot do anything I said He
    didn't there is a difference.
    Read Jeremiah 18 there is no mention of Esau and Jacob there and you get the full meaning. I gave you the refference. What's the matter it's scripture it won't bite you.
    Limiting God my friend is believing that He can't save some one. Election is not not a pre-condition for Salvation.
    Where did I say He doesn't save by Grace?. Election and Grace are not the same thing. I'm sorry you don't believe in an all powerful God. You believe in one who is limited to saving only those pre-elected. Talk about a box.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike
     
  3. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi Larry
    Then why do you keep talking about me.
    Not so Larry it just isn't there.
    Not so again Larry you didn't respond to the subject of the thread. You responded to me personally.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike
     
  4. timothy27

    timothy27 New Member

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    Com now Luv Light do not twist beliefs with words. Jarthur I am sure believes in an all-powerful God that i not limited. I am sure he believes God is powerful enough to save all, but does not. There is a big difference in this belief and the one you have attributed to him.
     
  5. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi Timothy;
    I haven't twisted anything. Do you believe that God will only save the elect? If you do then you limit God.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike
     
  6. timothy27

    timothy27 New Member

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    It does not limit God, just because I believe He only saves the elect does not mean that he can not save everyone. This is not limiting. If some is powerful enough to save all yet chooses not to does not mean they are limited.
     
  7. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi Timothy;
    Scripture never says that God will not save any but those who do not believe in Him.
    Calvinist say that the non elect will be sent to hell. That they can't believe because they are not elect and saved first.

    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike
     
  8. timothy27

    timothy27 New Member

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    I know what Calvinist believe and it does not limit God.
     
  9. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Then why do you keep talking about me.</font>[/QUOTE]Because you keep asking questions like this about yourself, or making statements about yourself.

    Not so Larry it just isn't there.</font>[/QUOTE]It is actually page 5, not page six. Look at the first post on page five. There, you turned the conversation to you.

    Not so again Larry you didn't respond to the subject of the thread. You responded to me personally.</font>[/QUOTE]That is wrong. Go back to page four and look at my posts. They are all about the topic of the thread, until you made your false charge on the top of page five. It is there for all to see. You are wrong. Your comments about the topic were misguided, then you made false charges about me.

    He has already. It is right there in His word for you to believe. So let's look at it.

    Your charges about limiting God are some more of the misguided assertions I was talking about. Calvinism does not limit God in anyway. You are ignoring what the Bible says about election.

    YOu say Scripture never says that God will not save any but those who do not believe in Him. That is simply wrong. The Bible does say that God will not save any but those who believe in him. You have added a "not" that makes the sentence entirely inaccurate and unbiblical. Belief is the requirement for salvation.

    Then you say Calvinist say that the non elect will be sent to hell. This is the teaching of the Bible.

    Then you say That they can't believe because they are not elect and saved first.This is wrong, and has been corrected numerous times. No one is saved before they believe. Period. Why do you persist in that argument? Why have you not learned. Calvinism teaches that salvation comes after belief, not before. Here is the order.

    Election before time ( Eph 1:4; 2 Thess 2:13).
    Belief (2 Thess 2:13).
    Salvation (Acts 16:31; Rom 10:13; etc).

    It is clear from passages such as 2 Thess 2:13 and 1 Tim 2:10 that election and salvation are two different things, and that election precedes salvation.

    Change your theology to fit the Scriptures. You will find life to be much better.
     
  10. TexasSky

    TexasSky Guest

    Whatever,

    You knowledge of language is weak.

    "Should he not" is just a fancy way of saying "Shouldn't he," and "shouldn't he," is a fancy way of saying "should he have to have" means the same thing.
     
  11. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Hi Mike,

    Sorry, I am very bust right now and it makes it hard to keep up with posting. Maybe you have never been told this, But I would like to think you have. Calvinist places no limits on God. God can do anything He wishes. Lets look at this in list form.

    C= Calvinist A=Arminian

    1) God could save anyone.

    C agree
    A agree

    2) God could and has the power to save the whole world.

    C agree
    A agree

    3) God invites all to Him

    C agree
    A agree

    4) Gods love is Great, it is where all love comes from.

    C agree
    A agree

    5) God can hate..

    C agree
    A WOW NOW!!!! God can not hate.


    God can do as he wills. The point of romans 9 is not to say he hates a son or a nation. Its to show that can CAN at His own will choose to do as He wills to do. Romans 9 tells of God the potter molding each man the way he wills. Is this fair? Calvinist say yes...for God is in control. God has to power to send Katrina to judge sin...or because he just wanted to send a storm. God can give Jonah a guord....or God can take it from him. God can let satan "test" us....all to HIS glory.

    Yet Arminianism says...God can't elect...even when the Bible says he can.

    God can't hate...even when the Bible says He can. Just like your point to look at yet another passage. Mike, this does not help. If you say it is not a person, then its a whole nation of people. Mal. 1 says God will hate Edom, Esau, ...FOREVER". So if its a nation as you claim, any one born from the line of "esau" God hates. Now...i happen to believe, in progressive revelation. The NT holds precidence. The full view of the meaning of the bible is placed in the NT. We can see this in Paslms when david wrote the very words of Chrsit in the cross. I feel david had no idea he was doing this when he penned the words. yet the Holy Spirit directed daivid to write the right words. So in the NT we now see that it was a prophecy of Christ death. Like-wise, The words in the OT of God hating Esau, we are told what they mean in Romans 9.

    It was do to show ELECTION just as romans say. God choose to reject cain...and cain came to God on His own. Yes their was a "blood" picture, But God could have took cains offering and loved him and also tell him he needs to offer a blood offering too. Yet..he did not. And this was Gods choice.

    If God is not in full control, Gods love would be no good to us. If God can not control his love, how can we count on His grace and have any hope?

    God is also HOLY and hates sin. If God was not in control, God could not be holy. Sin would over take the world and God.


    God is holy and hates sin and is the JUDGE! If God is not in full control, how could God Judge?

    God shows mercy to some and not to others. (romans 9). If God was not in full control, God would have no power to show mercy and we all would be on our way to hell.

    This is the main stay for Calvinism. I do not control God. If God is not in control, He is not God.

    So..to answer you....

    God can save the whole world. He does not...and as to why..that is up to Him.

    God will also send some to hell. Those that go to hell are sinners taking a path away from God, and/or lefting up other things...or self.


    I need to go to church...talk to ya later


    In Christ...James
     
  12. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Now you're gonna make me cry.

    [​IMG]

    If that's the case then why not just say it the way the Bible says it? If "should I not have mercy" means "I am obligated to have mercy" then why did Bob see fit to change it to "why should God have mercy"?

    Should I not post on this topic?
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Likely answer so far from Calvinists: "Dead Silence"

    (Calvinists engaged in Detail-avoidance - fleeing from the text)

    Of course my "expectations" might be wrong. I will now read through the post history to see if we really do have dead silence on the specific points brought out on page 1 of this thread.

    </font>[/QUOTE]WEll - I was not "surprised" to say the least. The calvinists were as predictable as sunshine in August.

    Oh well. They seem to have no answer on this one!

    Again.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I just find it so hard to believe that the 2 main questions of this thread "must be avoided" at all costs by the Calvinists.

    Surely you guys have something to say on the OP challenge and the others listed on page 1!!

    I mean - all these pages have passed - and "still nothing"??
     
  15. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Dear Bob,

    I would love to answer your two questions, but my "knowledge of language is weak" and so I am having a hard time figuring out what your two questions are. Could you post them by themselves, without reposting all of that other stuff, maybe like this?

    1. This is question 1?

    2. This is question 2?

    Thanks,

    whatever
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I realize these 7 sentences are probably pretty daunting when posted long with the 6 sentences that form question #2.

    So I am posting them "by themselves" in an effort to encourage Calvinists to respond to the actual questions raised on page 1.

     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Now for question #2 -- numbered "still" as question #2?

    Likely answer so far from Calvinists: "Dead Silence"

    (Calvinists engaged in Detail-avoidance - fleeing from the text)

    Of course my "expectations" might be wrong. I will now read through the post history to see if we really do have dead silence on the specific points brought out on page 1 of this thread.

    </font>[/QUOTE]WEll - I was not "surprised" to say the least. The calvinists were as predictable as sunshine in August.

    Oh well. They seem to have no answer on this one!

    Again.
    [/QUOTE]
    [/QUOTE]

    Get it -- Abraham negotiating with God

    Moses negotiating with God.

    God says to Moses "Stand aside -- let me alone that I may destroy"

    Calvinists "claim" that EVEN if God says that about their own children they will gladly stand aside and REJOICE in that destruction.

    HOW UNCALVINIST was Moses' reaction.

    How UNCALVINIST God's response to Moses' reaction.

    The same goes for Abraham.

    God does not say "I am not sovereign today Abraham so please barter with me for lives of the people in Ninevah AS IF your arguments matter to Me".

    Abraham asks "SHOULD NOT the judge of all the earth do justly"??

    Well - can Abraham be the judge of that? Does he ask a good question? DOES he test that point with a valid argument?

    Apparently so!!

    But of course I WOULD say that - I am Arminian.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Bob...

    ********************

    Oh well. They seem to have no answer on this one!
    ********************
    Don't be a fool Bob ...right when you think we are gone...POW.right in the tummy


    I have not been on as much and have tried to get back in the flow. I have read your post 3 times...and maybe its me..but i don't get your point. Just ask what you need to ask and stop dancing around. If you have a verse..post it and let me give it a try. I may look up the wrong verse. Post your verse..tell me why it hurts my view...and let me have a go.

    fair?


    now...go to it

    the 1st verse is...and my 1st problem is...?


    In Christ...James


    BTW..i think i'll start clipping your "best sayings" like you do others.


    1)..
    " They seem to have no answer on this one!"
     
  19. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Dear Bob,

    I counted 19 question marks in your first "question" and and eight question marks in your second "question". Remember, my "knowledge of language is weak", so I am having trouble figuring out which question mark goes with the question and which ones do not. So, could you try again? For me, your friend, could you just ask your two questions without copying in all of that other nonsense?

    Thanks again,

    whatever

    P.S. - I did notice that you quoted Jonah 4:11 correctly. I appreciate it.
     
  20. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Bob, I answered your question.
     
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