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Should members give money to their church?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by nunatak, Jul 12, 2008.

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  1. standingfirminChrist

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    1 John 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

    If one sees a need in the Church and has ample to meet that need or provide toward the meeting of that need, one should give to the meeting of that need that which one can afford without taking from the needs of one's own home.

    1 Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
     
  2. superwoman8977

    superwoman8977 New Member

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    I had a pastor a few years back who worked a regualr job and pastored his church for free. I grew to have such respect for that man. I wish that all pastors would have to live in the real world and work a regular job and do what he had to do. This church I attend now has 4 pastors on staff and the senior pastor is the head master of a Christian school on the west side in addition to his duties with the church and the other 3 pastors work at a part-time job. The youth pastor works part-time at Cracker Barrel as a host in addition to his duties at the church. Maybe pastors working in the workplace would keep them more in touch with their flocks by understanding the hard times families are going through. I give a portion of my tithe to the church I attend but I do not give all for that reason. Its not all about money although I do give my 10% its about giving of our time and talents and gifts we have been blessed with as well.
     
  3. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Let me explain working in the "real world":

    First off, of our pastors:

    Senior Pastor worked before he became a pastor at a young age and at times had to drive a bus and have a newspaper route to be able to support his family. He now works 60+ hours a week being the senior pastor of a church of approximately 1000 people. He has a staff of 45 to manage, studies about 20+ hours a week for his messages and is available 24/7 for any needs including emergencies, deaths, etc.

    Senior Associate Pastor: Was the CFO for the Merchant Marine Academy in Kings Point NY. He works atleast 60+ hours a week in counseling, day to day runnings of the office/staff, teaching classes during the week, preaching when needed and doing a lot of the visitations.

    Missions Pastor: Was the president of his own construction company and managed MANY men in his work. Tends to work 80+ hours a week especially since he acted as the GC on our building project. He is in contact with all of our missionaries daily to be sure that they're needs are met and if there is anything we can do in addition to our support, he's there for them. He can also be considered the "plant manager" at our church so anything that goes wrong with the building, he needs to take care of. He also will house missionaries, plan 3+ missionary trips a year and make sure that they have whatever supplies are needed to take with them (they've taken tools, musical instruments, school supplies, medical supplies, etc. and left them for the mission). I tease him that he needs to add a murphy bed to his office since he lives there anyway.

    Children's Pastor - Worked on a farm and drove tractor trailers for a living. He now is in charge of our children's ministry which is very large. He oftentimes is at church from 8AM to 9PM, especially during the summer when we have different camps for the children each week. This week is basketball camp for the boys and a tambourine worship camp for the girls. He also has a homeschooling family of 6 kids - who are often there to help him with the tasks he needs to finish. Add in the counseling of children, and he's quite busy and I'm SURE he's there more than 60 hours a week.

    Family Care Pastor - Was a teacher at a Christian school as well as a farmer before he was a teacher. He does the majority of family counseling with the teens which, in this current age, is quite a busy job. He plans family events to be sure to build the family and does a lot of teaching. This is a new position for him - before this, he was the senior youth pastor for 15+ years.

    Youth Pastor - Worked in day care with his mom, and had another job (I remember him working but I can't remember what it was). He has always been in youth ministry - even when he WAS a youth. Since our youth group is almost 200 kids, he's got a huge job. Typically 50+ hours a week including counseling and just meeting the kids at their plays, concerts, etc. He gets into the kids lives in an awesome way - because he's available.

    Administrative Pastor - Worked for an accounting firm before he came on staff. He is in charge of ALL of the accounting and managing of the staff like a human resources department would. He also is always at church. 50+ hours atleast. With a $2 million dollar plus budget, that's a big job (and he makes sure we have an independent audit each year to be sure we're all above board.)

    Recovery Ministry Pastor - Was in the military then had his own landscaping service. He has a HUGE work in the church running all of the recovery ministries and doing a lot of counseling with those who have addiction issues. He also leads the divorce group which is a huge ministry of itself, unfortunately. So many have been touched by divorce. He's typically in the church by 6AM and some nights is not gone until 10PM.

    Finally my hubby. He's the Worship Pastor but he's also in charge of the college ministry and all things technical. Before he was a pastor, he was a computer software/hardware engineer who began his own business in 1989 and sold it in 1991 for many million dollars. His company had 30 employees and he made a name for himself in the audio industry where people STILL know him. He then had a consulting company where he worked for Audio Technica, Studer and Otari, all top audio companies. Audio Technica still will contact him to do a little work here and there because of his skill and experience (that's about 30 hours a year). Now he runs the college ministry, is in charge of all worship teams, leads worship on Sundays, is in charge of all of the audio equipment (which right now is needing to be replaced, so he's doing a LOT of work on that), and all the computers (which in the current state includes atleast 30 computers, the networks and all training and such). He's NEVER worked less than 60 hours a week and just this week, hit 90 hours.


    SOOOO - working in the real world? Yep - all of the pastors have done that. They connect just fine with the congregation. In addition, they are working their tushies off in their ministries and their work in the church would suffer if they had to divide their time with another job. Another job would be atleast 20 hours a week - how would they fit that in? As for knowing what other families are going through, they are totally in touch with that because of their own hard work, high expectations of the congregation and just the needs of the flock. Not to mention raising their own children and being a husband to their wife - who oftentimes have a job at the church too to 1) suppliment the income and 2) do the jobs that need to be done.

    I get tired of people saying that my husband should work in the "real world" to see what it's like. Yeah - been there done that and doing MORE than that right now. This IS the real world, baby.
     
    #63 annsni, Jul 15, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 15, 2008
  4. nunatak

    nunatak New Member

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    Wow Ann, you are truly passionate about this!
    I think the real measure of how a church is doing is how it does in proclaiming the gospel. Not the gospel of your best life now (no offense intended superwoman), but in preaching Christ. Preaching Christ is done in the local church, through church plants, and finally cross cultural missions. So my yardstick is how does your church do in preaching Christ, in light of your multi-staff.
     
  5. superwoman8977

    superwoman8977 New Member

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    Yeah but heres the thing. Who are they reaching locked up in their offices all week long? They arent reaching people. I love the pastor that can work a regular job, being a witness to others and then preach to his flock on Sunday. People in here say we need to touch people with the Gospel of Christ, yet they have locked themselves up in an office 5 days a week, and I love the Pastors spouse that can be there for the flock as well as be a part of the community. We have a pastors wife in our church that yes has raised her kids but now is a part of many different cultural activiities as well as working as a nurse 3-12 hour shifts at the local hospital.
     
  6. nunatak

    nunatak New Member

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    The Great Commission is a corporate command to the church, that is, the association of local believers. It is a danger, I think, to draw to much of a personal application.
    If the church, or the local believers, have a command to preach Christ, teach doctrine, baptize, and make disciples, then it should be easy to conclude that the members have individual parts to fulfill the Commission.
    You single out the pastor, merely one member among many. Is he a partner in ministry? Does he preach Christ to the local church? Does he teach biblical doctrine to the local church? Does he reprove, rebuke, exhort with patience and doctrine? If so, then based on biblical instruction, he has the right to take his physical living from the gospel. That means the local church have an obligation to pay their pastor a salary and incentive package. I have a link provided to help any who would like to look at it so that we can be better partners with our pastors.
    http://www.my-pastor.com/
     
  7. standingfirminChrist

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    A pastor should not be required to go out and work another job. If the pastor wants to work a second job, that is to be his choice, not the Church's.

    In Acts 6, deacons were appointed to wait tables (serve in the physical work of the Church);i.e., visitation and such, so that those in authority could attend more time to study the Word of God so they could meet the spiritual needs.

    The congregation, too much, thinks the pastor is supposed to drop everything and come running because Brother John fell and broke his wrist or Sister Sue can't get her car started for work or some other thing that pulls the pastor away from doing that which is necessary for the spiritual things.

    Give your pastor a break. If he spends 5, 6 hours in his office a day, He is studying and preparing sermons to feed you and the rest of the congregation. If you have a physical need that you can't meet yourself talk to a deacon.
     
  8. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    I think pretty well. We have a camp for young girls this week where there is no mistaking the Gospel. We've had hearts turned to the Lord through this before - both in the children and in parents. We also have a camp for the boys (basketball camp) where the Gospel is presented too (one of the men running it this year is from Children's Evangelical Fellowship and I KNOW he makes sure each and every boy hears the Gospel). We just were in the park in the our village leading worship, presenting the Gospel in word, song and mime as well as inviting our community's children to VBS where again, the Gospel is given.

    On Sunday morning, we do not preach a feel good message. Our pastor is going through Romans right now - started almost 2 years ago (he's done 36 messages on Romans - there were a number of other things that were put in these last 2 years too as things came up - so he's willing to preach to where the Spirit leads) and we're in Romans 9 for the next 6 weeks since 9, 10, and 11 are going to be deep passages.

    We have a number of church plants and are praying about another one right now (and DH might be feeling the call to this in a big way - we're still praying). The majority of our missionaries are homegrown and have planted churches and done major things for the Lord (including starting a hospital in the Congo - and looking to start another one).

    Can we do better? I think we always can. We can never be happy with the status quo in our spreading the Gospel. We are looking for new or better ways to spread the Word - and seeking God in what He wants us to do. I have to say that I'm comfortable with how our church is working for the Lord. Yes, we have a large staff, but we also have a lot of people in our church and a largely unchurched community - or actually a lot of "cultural Christians" but otherwise not reached for the Gospel. We've declared our Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and the ends of the earth to be "Northport/East Northport, Western Suffolk County, New York Metro area and the ends of the earth". :)
     
  9. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    So being locked up in the offices all week long means that they have no one that they're reaching? Do you KNOW how much work goes into running a VBS for 450 kids? Do you know how much work it takes to run a successful children's ministry? It's not like everything falls into place on it's own. How about studying the Word so they can reach the people for Christ?

    You have NO clue how many come to our church during the day or how often the staff is running around to meet with people. My hubby had to take the new tiny office down the hall from the main entrance because when he's doing programming or editing video or audio for the website/church events, he can't be interrupted. But just today he's meeting with a few guys to have lunch (college guys), counseling a young man with "issues", and then we're having the college kids over to our house tonight to watch the All-Star game.

    Nope - no worries about being "locked up in the office all day". Oh - this doesn't include the 300 kids and about 100 parents that will descend on the church tonight for basketball and tambourine camp. These events include most of the staff working.

    Oh - this also doesn't include the influence we all have in our outside activities (personally, this means many sailors, the women and girls at my barn, and our neighbors as well as old friends). it's not like we live in a church bubble - we have a ministry every day in whatever we do from me helping a dear old woman get her groceries to the car the other day to helping an accident victim last week.

    People must have a pretty narrow view of their pastors if they are only being effective if they have an outside job.
     
  10. rickh

    rickh New Member

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    Assumptions and opinions.

    There is a lot of speculation and assumptions being tossed around about what a pastor does. If you do not know, then hang around your pastor for a while. I lived with one for 20 years of my life (my father), and he would have loved to have been locked up in his office most of the day. It just didn't happen. I do believe that it is more biblical for him to be there spending time in the Word and prayer (as was pointed out by standingfirminchrist.

    As for paying a pastor, Scripture is very clear about this. Congregations need to look back at Scripture instead of saying "I think...." Study it out in Scripture and let it form your opinion. Following is an excerpt from a paper I wrote on this topic a couple years ago:

    There are many passages in the Bible that address this topic. The principle of financially supporting the minister is clearly defined throughout the Bible. The Levitical priests were to eat of the meat the Israelites brought as a sacrifice to the Lord. Concerning the upkeep of the priests, Moses said, “And this shall be the priest's due from the people, from them that offer a sacrifice, whether it be ox or sheep; and they shall give unto the priest the shoulder, and the two cheeks, and the maw. The firstfruit also of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the first of the fleece of thy sheep, shalt thou give him.” Paul affirms this when he says, “Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings?”

    In Numbers 35, the Israelites were also commanded to give the priests certain cities and lands. The priests did not need the land so that they might till and plant crops. They were fed by the tithes and offerings from the people, but the lands were given simply for them to have a place to dwell. Matthew Henry states,
    They were not to have any ground for tillage; they needed not to sow, nor reap, nor gather into barns, for their heavenly Father fed them with the tithe of the increase of other people's labours, that they might the more closely attend to the study of the law, and might have more leisure to teach the people; for they were not fed thus easily that they might live in idleness, but that they might give themselves wholly to the business of their profession, and not be entangled in the affairs of this life.

    They were to concentrate their daily efforts on their duties in the temple – not on tilling the ground and planting crops.

    These passages clearly show that the Israelites were required to provide for the priests food, drink, clothing, and dwelling place. These items are the daily needs of the pastor today as well. Since Paul reaffirms this principle in I Corinthians 9:13, it is safe to assume that the New Testament church should continue this practice.
    Paul’s reaffirmation in I Corinthians 9 requires a closer look. The entire chapter is devoted to discussing the maintenance of Paul and other ministers of the Gospel. He states that he has the right to receive of the fruit of his work, yet he refuses this right in certain situations. Some use this passage to assert that the pastor should not be paid, but a closer examination shows the opposite to be true. In fact, Paul did accept support from some churches.

    At the beginning of the chapter, Paul asks a series of rhetorical questions to prove that he has the right to be supported for his work. “Do we not have the right to eat and drink? Do we not have the right to take along a believing wife, as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working for a living? Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard without eating any of its fruit? Or who tends a flock without getting some of the milk?”

    Obviously, Paul is defending his right to be supported. Note that this does not apply to Paul alone. He names Barnabus, Cephas, and the other apostles as well, and passes these rights to them. In a more general sense, the soldier, vineyard worker, and shepherd are all entitled to a provision. If a layperson is entitled, by extension, the shepherd of a local flock is entitled as well.

    Paul continues by using an Old Testament law to further prove his point. He quotes from Deuteronomy 25:4 where Moses states that an ox should not wear a muzzle while it is threshing the grain. Since the ox is not muzzled, it may freely eat of the grain. Paul asks the obvious question, “Is it for oxen that God is concerned?” Of course, God is concerned about the ox, but Paul continues by saying that “it was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop.”

    As the ox labored at its work, it was free to bend down and eat of the grain. This was the reward for the work that it was completing. Moses originally recorded this law, yet Paul states that it was written for his own sake. In other words, this law was specifically written to show that Paul, and all ministers, have a right to be supported by the work that God calls them to do.

    The word “hope” in verse 10 is not a doubtful hope. This hope is an expectant hope, and something that Paul and pastors today should be able to rely on with confidence. There should not be any doubt whether the pastor will be paid. There should not be any doubt that the pastor will be sufficiently paid either. If the ox was allowed to eat as much as it saw fit, then certainly the pastor should be able to count on receiving a provision that provides for all of his needs.

    Paul reaffirms the practice of paying ministers in I Timothy 5:17-18 where he says, “Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially they who labor in the word and doctrine. For the Scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The laborer is worthy of his reward.” The importance of this passage demands a closer look.

    The meaning of the words “double honor” in verse seventeen has been debated for centuries. This phrase has been interpreted several ways:
    1. Honor as an elder and extra honor for those who serve well
    2. Double the honor as the widows mentioned in the first part of the chapter
    3. Honor and pay
    4. Double pay
    There certainly may be additional interpretations, but these embody the predominant views of this passage. All hold some merit since each of the interpretations consider either honor or compensation.

    Unquestionably, the pastor that rules well is worthy of our honor and respect. As the Chief Executive Officer of a corporation demands the respect of the employees, so much more should the local flock honor and respect the man that God has called to lead them spiritually. The office itself demands honor, but as these verses state, the ones who rule well should require extra honor.

    Though few would dispute the fact that honoring the pastor is esteeming or respecting him, others, such as the Mormons, have denied that honor also indicates a financial provision. Verse eighteen indicates Paul’s intended meaning of honor. Once again, Paul uses the Old Testament law of muzzling the ox. As noted above, this same phrase was also used in I Corinthians 9 to indicate that Paul held the right to receive payment for his work. Also, Paul continues by stating that “the laborer is worthy of his reward.” If an employee is rewarded with a paycheck every week, a pastor should certainly receive compensation as well.

    Looking further, honor is translated from the Greek word Timē. It can be used as honor, price, or compensation and is used as price or pay in Matthew 27:6, 9; Acts 4:34; 7:16, and I Corinthians 6:20. Surely Paul is suggesting that the elder should be respected and paid for his work.
     
  11. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I really don't think you understand the job of a pastor. Add to these statements your previous statement, "I wish that all pastors would have to live in the real world and work a regular job and do what he had to do," and I'm sure of it. Please rethink your attitude.

    I worked in a factory for 4 years to put myself through Bible college. However, I've learned far more about the world as a missionary-pastor than I ever learned in a factory. I've counselled drug addicts, marriage problems, alcohol problems, mental patients (counseled a schizophrenic weekly for years). I once counseled a girl whose father had molested her and was in prison for killing her mother. I've been in many hundreds of homes, including poor homes where the stink was so hard to stand you wanted to run. I've gone to a believer's home to talk her husband out of leaving her.

    You want to know what the "real world" is like? Ask a pastor. He knows far more about the "real world" than the average Christian ever will.
     
    #71 John of Japan, Jul 15, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 15, 2008
  12. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Good post, rickh. And welcome to the Baptist Board! :thumbs: :wavey:
     
  13. standingfirminChrist

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    It is true, the pew Christian doesn't know what goes on behind the scenes. The study involved, prayer time, counselling, the list goes on and on.

    Pastor's have a full workload. I am sure rickh and J o J can also relate. When we stand behind a pulpit to preach even just a 40 minute sermon, we have put several hours into preparation for the delivery of that sermon. This takes a lot of mental strength as the flesh does war against the spirit.

    And then the delivery drains the pastor both mentally and physically. After that 40 minute sermon, under the lights that are needed so one can read the Word and any outline notes one has written down, when we step down from that sacred desk, it feels like we have put in a full days work.

    Truly, the pastor is worthy of his hire and need not more put on him than is absolutely necessary.
     
  14. nunatak

    nunatak New Member

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    JOJ, SFIC, thanks for those posts. I think there is a great need for pastors to feel that the members of the church they pastor are partners in ministry with them. This idea of a pastor not doing a real job doesn't fly.
     
  15. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Very true. It is physically and mentally and spiritually draining to preach and serve God. Many years ago my wife gave me a chess computer (before PCs were popular). I found I could beat it up to about the 6th level on a normal day. (I'm sure I couldn't now.) But at the end of a Sunday serving God, I couldn't even beat the easiest level!
     
  16. standingfirminChrist

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    I haven't played chess in ages. Bought a glass chess set a couple years ago and never opened it.
    One day.... if the Lord will
     
  17. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I haven't played myself in a long time. Used to love it. Maybe you and I can play in Heaven! Japanese chess, called Shogi, is fun--you get to use your opponent's pieces against him after you capture them! :thumbs:

    Hmm. Is chess considered "real world" activity for a pastor? :confused:
     
  18. standingfirminChrist

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    Chess preparing us for battle?

    Shogi sounds interesting.
    [​IMG]
     
  19. LeBuick

    LeBuick New Member

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    AMEN Brother John... :thumbs:
     
  20. David Lamb

    David Lamb Active Member

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    You seem to have unusual ideas of what being a pastor involves. Are you saying that pastors live in a fantasy world? Some may, of course - I am not personally acquainted with every pastor in the world. :laugh: But pastors don't disappear into their studies/offices every Sunday night, only to reappear the following Sunday morning!

    Is being a pastor is not a regular job? Pastors don't drop in and out of being pastors - they are pastors all the time - can't get more regular than that! Or were you using "regular" in the sense of "usual"? But then, there are plenty of occupations that are unusual.
     
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