Should Non-Christian Literature be avoided?

Refreshed · Aug 6, 2003

Originally posted by Heart and Soul:
I'm not sure how we can exclude secular writers yet deal with a secular DMV system in getting our license... What's the difference? We can see God's work and inspiration in all things.
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I'm sorry to have to disagree with you, but DMV is from the pit of Hell and only exists because of man's fallen nature. It is often used by Satan to destroy men's testimonies (i.e. anger outburts, etc.).

Regarding secular literature, there are appropriate types and inappropriate types. If the subject of the book, or some portions of the book are not edifying and don't help us to grow spiritually, they aren't absolutely necessary. Glorification of evil is never a good thing. I believe we are given license to read non-Christian books, but there are books that as Christians we should not read.

As far as Moby Dick goes, one man's genious is another man's drudgery. I believe much of the "3-D" effect in Melville's classic is imposed upon the text by people with too much time on their hands. Hey, you can read anything into anything if you catch my drift.

Jason

DCK · Aug 6, 2003

I'd have to answer "no" to this question. My belief is that God intends for us to use our minds to honor Him, to be well-informed and alert. Gathering knowledge may require reading non-Christian materials from time to time. Being separate from the world doesn't mean being insulated from it.

fcs25 · Aug 6, 2003

Absolutely not, if anyones faith cannot withstand debate/questions and research into other cultures,religions and even research into atheism I doubt if their faith is worth having.

Johnv · Aug 7, 2003

Originally posted by Refreshed:
DMV is from the pit of Hell and only exists because of man's fallen nature. It is often used by Satan to destroy men's testimonies (i.e. anger outburts, etc.).
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Where on earth did you get this idea??? How on earth does the DMV destroy men's testimonies??? I have yet to have my testimony destroyed by the DMV. Further, the fact that I am held accountable by the DMV to be a responsible driver and vehicle owner makes be a better Christian witness.

Brett · Aug 7, 2003

I figured he was being facetious.

Tim · Aug 7, 2003

Quoting Jason,"As far as Moby Dick goes, one man's genious is another man's drudgery. I believe much of the "3-D" effect in Melville's classic is imposed upon the text by people with too much time on their hands. Hey, you can read anything into anything if you catch my drift."

Jason,
Read the chapter about the whiteness of the whale and tell me Melville's not really talking about the holiness of God. Just one example.

Tim

Jim1999 · Aug 7, 2003

Reading good literature expands the mind in secular fields, and will serve to make one a better preacher. It helps give orderly command of the English language, organize the mind anmd develop a sense of delivery.

Cheers,

Jim

Brett · Aug 7, 2003

Well said Jim. (A fellow Canadian - yay!)

Haruo · Aug 8, 2003

Originally posted by Tim:
Quoting Wisdom Seeker,"I find it interesting that Moby Dick is the book that you used as an example. The only thing that I could find fault with Moby Dick was it's tendency to drone on in seemingly no perceivable guided direction. I do feel a sense of accomplishment to be able to say that I trudged through it."

I think Melville's "droning" may actually be some of the most clever writing in "Moby Dick". There he often uses symbolism and allusions to make some philosophical points. It wasn't until my second time through that I picked many of them out. It's his "third level", i.e. First,it's an adventure story, second a moral tale, and third a personal complaint against God and His righteous ways.

He was a genius, but definitely not pro-Christian. So I read him with admiration for his skill, but with caution for his beliefs. So it should be with all literature.

Tim
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In addition to BB, I am a member of Ishmail (the Melville Society mailing list), and it's amazing how often the discussions there seem to mirror those here. At the moment there's a thread going entitled "Job, Divinity (not fudge), and Ahab", which today produced this exchange reminiscent of the Calvinist-Arminian debates at their best (imho):

> >_How dare you question the creator of the world?
Shut up now, and
> >submit._ (xviii)
>
> Yeah, that's basically the message I get from Job,
and more or
> less from
> Jonah too, which is why I don't like reading the
Bible.
> Personally, I find
> it offensive. Sorry Christine. If I'm reading it
wrong, let me know.
>
> -Bridgette

Bravo! You have got it absolutely right. You are
supposed to find it offensive. That is the basic
idea. On the one side is Reality; on the other side
is the vanity of our human pride. Reality says
"submit to me." It does so in the form of death most
notably, but disease, poverty, anger, fear, hatred,
and even Love. But in all these things, we humans
are but flotsom and jetsom on the currents. We are
controlled; we only imagine we are in control. That
is why WIlliam James said "Wait until you are there
yourself, my friend."
So Ishmael submits. He accepts what he can
neither understand nor control and is allowed to
live. But Ahab, romantic Ahab, defies and dies.
In Scripture, Reality's message is to accept
defeat of all the human hopes, to surrender ones
humanity on the cross. Any human ego wanting to be
in some control and loving itself must necessarily
be offended. THis is a direct confrontation, a
cosmic slap in the face.
THe bottom line, however, is not whether we
should be offended. Of course we should. The
question is whether, our hurt feelings aside,
whether in fact we, our flesh, is anything more
than, as scripture says, "a wind that passeth away
and cometh not again."
Ahab's defiance of the Gods may be
pathological and even crazy, but it is very human.
-Dr Dave
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to which Bridgette has just replied

I think we're supposed to find it offensive and then realize that we're wrong and we should submit. That's why I don't like it. Why should I have to say that humans are powerless and worthless when we're the only things in the universe that actually have any worth? What's the point of that? Where is the good in the story of Job? Its message won't help anyone. If Reality is going to kill me either way, I'd rather die fighting.
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Haruo
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Tim · Aug 8, 2003

Huaro,

You're definitely on the third-level with Melville! Great authors don't merely "drone on" without a point (unlike many who post on BB).

To read Moby Dick as merely as an over-long adventure story is not to understand why it is considered great literature.

Maybe conservative Christians (literalists) are just generally hesitant to look for symbolism, lest they find it in the Bible too (but hey, that's a subject for another thread).

Tim

Haruo · Aug 13, 2003

Another snippet from Ishmail

Originally posted by Dr. Dave on Ishmail
Ishmael's saying in "Loomings" that he had begun to see a little into those mysterious causes that not only sent him on the whaling voyage but also gave him the illusion that he was doing it of his own free will is much closer to what it means to "believe in" God than any rational argument from design. As Jonathan Edwards said, "I felt God at the appearance of a thunderstorm..." not "I rationally deduced the existence of a creator from the logical evidence of the creation." It is an emotional apprehension of the illusion that we, our thinking rational logical little minds, are in control. Ahab, in losing his leg and in those 3 days in the pit of hell in his hammock, felt what it means to not be in control. So did Pip when he fell overboard. So must Melville at some point(s) in his life. Hence, any belief in God Melville may have had was not adherence to some doctrine or dogma, but what he rightly called in his review of Hawthorne a "sense of Total depravity and original Sin." A sense.
That is why William James was right. No one can be rationally argued into an emotional apprehension. It is like rationally trying to convince someone to fall in love. You can convince a person that falling in love would be nice or a good idea, but logic cannot create the experience. "Wait till you are there yourself, my friend," is the only response possible.
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Probably really ought to be in "Calvinism/Arminianism", but this thread was already here, so...

Haruo

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