Should we tithe or give?

Soulman...Hang in there brother...I know exactly what you are talking about...on BOTH the topics you mentioned...and I HAVE studied them out too.My pastor (whom I love dearly) and I have discussed all these issues and mostly just agree to disagree.As far as "serving" in the church(I saw that in the other thread),that is God's business but I don't make a lot of noise in church or around my brothers and sisters about what I believe (and I told my preacher that I never would)since my convictions on this stuff are personal and I never want to be guilty of sowing seeds of discord among the brethren.Being divorced I already know and accept that there are some things I'd never be asked to do anyway.I recently(with my pastors blessing) and at the Lord's direction started a tract ministry in our church.There are always things you can do that the Lord will use to "extend" your reach as a servant of God...some of them FAR BEYOND the closed-in walls of the church building.Your reward will be in HEAVEN brother...keep your chin up.God Bless You!!!

Greg Sr.

 

Greg Sr.

Tithing References <-Click here for the list of Tith* search results. u asked for this a couple days ago...

 

Why is this?

What the bible says is very clear.

The free will offering [that Moses collected to build the Tabernacle] is the only OT offering that comes close to what the NT says about giving. He collected so much that he had to stop taking.

 

God Bless You Soulman...wow...what an ordeal.God will bless you for your faithfulness though.So far(and I've only been in the church I'm in a little over a year)I haven't had any confrontations over this issue...and I'm not looking for any.But...if I was ever questioned about it I would speak the truth on it with grace.I too shared a few printed studies with my pastor some time ago.When I asked him later what he thought of them his response was that they were "bad exegesis",so I made a personal choice NOT to get confrontational about it.He is a good preacher and pastor with a big heart for souls and our fellowship so I chose to agree to disagree and continue to give as God leads and enables me.I've not discerned any particular call of God to teach so until and unless that happens I'll stay put unless God leads me to go elsewhere.I too wonder as you do how so many otherwise good men of God could be so "off" on this subject as it seems to me that the scriptures they use to justify their position are quoted and taught INSPITE of the "context" and "dispensation" in which they appear.Now that I have seen the difference and been exposed to the whole truth,IN CONTEXT and RIGHTLY DIVIDED it just doesn't add up anymore.What you and I believe is NOT some twisted false interpretation but rather a sound teaching taken from rightly dividing the WHOLE COUNSEL of the PLAIN ENGLISH of the Word of God.This is my opinion but I do believe it to be right.I'll close this by simply saying...as the Word of God says.."Whatsoever is not of FAITH is SIN."

Greg Sr.

 

I do not believe that ANYONE- including the self appointed theologians( ) on the BB who have “searched this out for themselves”- can soundly argue against that in the Old Testament, the tithes were used to sustain the work of God (providing for the priests, needs for the Tabernacle or Temple, etc.).

Nehemiah 12:44- "And at that time were some appointed over the chambers for the treasures, for the offerings, for the firstfruits, and for THE TITHES, to gather into them out of the fields of the cities THE PORTIONS OF THE LAW FOR THE PRIESTS AND LEVITES: for Judah rejoiced for the priests and for the Levites that waited."

Nehemiah 13:5- "And he had prepared for him a great chamber, where aforetime they laid the meat offerings, the frankincense, and the vessels, AND THE TITHES of the corn, the new wine, and the oil, which was commanded TO BE GIVEN TO THE LEVITES, AND THE SINGERS, AND THE PORTERS; and the offerings of the priests."

Malachi 3:8-10 (in proper context)- "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? IN TITHES and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. BRING YE ALL THE TITHES INTO THE STOREHOUSE, THAT THERE MAY BE MEAT IN MINE HOUSE, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."

As you study the NT, you will find that the Holy Spirit applied this same rule to sustaining the work of the church and its pastor(s):
I Timothy 5:17-18 (Pastoral Epistle) - "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, ESPECIALLY THEY WHO LABOUR IN WORD AND DOCTRINE. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward."

Obviously, “the scripture” that “saith” is from the Old Testament, and it applied to the care of New Testament church leaders. Those who labor in the Word and doctrine- the Pastor, is also worthy to be supported from the money brought into the house of God. Concluding that that principle operated on tithes in the Old Testament, why would that same basis not apply in the New Testament — that God’s people be faithful in tithing? (See Jesus’ commendation of the Pharisees for being faithful to the tithe- as they should have been- but his condemnation for their lacking in other spiritual disciplines)

I Corinthians 9:6-14- "Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working? Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? Say I these things as a man? or SAITH NOT THE LAW THE SAME ALSO? For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or SAITH HE IT ALTOGETHER FOR OUR SAKES? FOR OUR SAKES, NO DOUBT, THIS IS WRITTEN: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. Do ye not know that THEY WHICH MINISTER ABOUT HOLY THINGS LIVE OF THE THINGS OF THE TEMPLE? AND THEY WHICH WAIT AT THE ALTAR ARE PARTAKERS WITH THE ALTAR? EVEN SO HATH THE LORD ORDAINED THAT THEY WHICH PREACH THE GOSPEL SHOULD LIVE OF THE GOSPEL."

- The Law taught the tithe, and it was given and used to support the ministers and their work. The New Testament takes that same principle and applies it to church leaders. I believe the Bible teaches the NT Christian to give tithes to support the local NT church.

- The principle of tithing to support ministers goes back even before the Law was given to Moses: Genesis 14:18-20- "And MELCHIZEDEK king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and HE WAS PRIEST OF THE MOST HIGH GOD. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And HE GAVE HIM TITHES OF ALL."

Even before the Law was given to Moses, God’s people tithed to support the priests, as did Abraham to Melchizedek in the above passage. In the above passage, it may seem unclear who was giving who the tithes, but Hebrews 7:1-6 makes it very clear that it was Abraham tithing to Melchizedek (a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ). "For this MELCHISEDEC, king of Salem, PRIEST OF THE MOST HIGH GOD, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; TO WHOM ALSO ABRAHAM GAVE A TENTH PART OF ALL; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: But he whose descent is not counted from them RECEIVED TITHES OF ABRAHAM, and blessed him that had the promises." Abraham gave the tithe as unto Christ.

The tithe is not just a principle of the Law given to Moses, but it is a principle that God’s people have practiced in every age, even BEFORE the Law. Furthermore, I am of the deep conviction that it would be nothing less than gross disobedience to do less under grace as a child of God, than what a person who lived under the law rigidly, obediently practiced.

As for the argument that the tithe in the OT was produce, livestock, etc., and not what we teach today, that is a specious argument at best. #1, currency changes with time. #2, many churches- especially during the Great Depression readily accepted these gifts as “tithes”. As a matter of fact, I would accept them today, and I think these tithes honor God just as those who are capable of giving the monetary tithe honor the Lord. #3, there are many churches that practice what you could call storehouse tithing. Our church has offerings ready to give away to those in genuine need. As a matter of fact, from the tithes and offerings we receive each week, we regularly give thousands away to help meet the needs of others.

Guys, you just can’t “preach it away”. Just be obedient, sacrifice, and give God His.

 

Ralph...you are doing a fine job of dealing with this subject so I'll defer to your much more organized brain on it.Izzaksdad brings out some good points as I do believe(and always have) that the "laborer is worthy of his hire"and that churches should definitely support the men who labor in the things of the Gospel in their behalf.However...I'm with ya on the fact that NOWHERE in the NT is the tithe taught or even suggested...even though Paul and the other NT writers had ample opportunity to bring it out if it was supposed to be continued.Instead they taught GIVING...!2 Corinthians 9:THE WHOLE CHAPTER deals with ministering to the material,physical,and monetary(as well as spiritual) needs of the saints and sets forth the principle that "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart,so let him GIVE..."(PRIVATELY..between HIMSELF and the Lord)The point was that if we GIVE unto the needs of others("liberal distribution"vs.13)WE are GIVING unto GOD.It's just NOT A TITHE.There is no Levitical Priesthood OR Storehouse today.I saw in another thread somebody made mention of the fact that even the JEWS don't practice tithing today since there is NO Levitical Priesthood in existence to tithe to.Frankly...I'm not begging or complaining...just stating a fact...it is hard for me to endure the idea that I may be in "gross disobedience" if I don't tithe.I got a paycheck today (won't say how much) and after I paid the necessary DUE bills that came in my mailbox I had something near $35 dollars left to last me the next TWO WEEKS til the next payday.(I don't live "LARGE"...don't even own a car...can't afford one).IF I had tithed on the GROSS as most "tithers" suggest I wouldn't have been able to meet my other obligations(the aforementioned bills).As it is,I have to try and eat and survive for the next two weeks below the poverty level while many of my brethren live in comparitive luxury.I'M NOT ENVIOUS OF THEM...I'm just saying that I struggle to survive like many others AND I DID THE SAME EVEN WHEN I DID BELIEVE IN AND PRACTICE TITHING.I'm sure there are many others in my church who (if the truth were known) would say they do the same thing.I'll just say this....I GIVE....and do it joyfully when I can...and look forward to the opportunity to do so.I'm sad and disappointed when I can't.To sum this up.... I have "purposed in my heart"that I will willingly and joyfully and cheerfully GIVE as much as possible as often as possible as the LORD directs me when it is available for me to do so.I'm prepared to give it ALL if God so directs me since it ALL belongs to Him anyway...and what I have...I have from His gracious Hand. One last point.....I find NOWHERE in the OLD or the NEW Testament that either the Jew OR the Born Again Christian in this present dispensation were EVER commanded to tithe on the monetary WAGES they recieved to survive on for work they did.If somebody can prove me wrong on that...I'm listening.God Bless You.

Greg Sr.

 

Good points men. We can still agree to disagree in christian love.

 

Izzaksdad....I agree...and so we shall..but I do think it is impossible for both positions to be correct.It is my prayer and hope that we can all be humble and teachable whenever we are dealing with scripture and doctrine.I certainly would never profess to know it all or be an expert and I'm sure neither would you.I just believe it is possible that at some point in the past we were all misled by well-intentioned men of God who intended nothing more than to fund the churches to do the work of the Lord.I only contend though that this must be done through TRUE Biblical FAITH GIVING.God enables some to give more than others and blesses those who do it out of a loving cheerful heart whether they give $1 or a $1000.He'll probably even bless one who practices "tithing" faithfully if the tither is doing it out of genuine LOVE for Him and NOT OBLIGATION.There are those however that blindly follow the incorrect(my opinion here)teaching of the tithe in this dispensation that do it while ignoring the needs of their families and their personal obligations.There is no way God can or would honor that kind of giving.Frankly...it's a BAD TESTIMONY.
My point is...we should all GIVE as liberally as possible to meet the needs of the church and the brethren and those less fortunate that ourselves.THAT is the BIBLE way as taught in the New Testament....and indirectly...in the Old Testament as well.Plenty of scripture to back it up.See the list Richard posted a page or two ago in this same thread.God Bless You Preacher.

Greg Sr.

 

Soulman

Thank you for for the civil words. I am a Pastor. There have been some things that I have changed on over the years because I was wrong. However, the reason I have not renigged on the tithing issue is because I am right. You and GP- one of my most loving and supportive members- are wrong. It is as simple as that.

I will preach until the day I die- and challenge my people as well- that a christian in right relationship with His God will tithe. The tithe is God's.

I can stand 100% flat-footed on this truth, and still love you and debate this issue in christian love and humility- that is my point. However, if we continue to change the truth just because it offends some, sooner or later we will have no truth to preach.

God bless you my brother!

 

Preacher...I've been called wrong before plenty of times in my 50 years...many times I have been ...some times I haven't been.I guess at this point in life I'm just trying to practice a proper level of humility....but on this issue I am convinced I have come to the truth as taught in the whole counsel of the Word of God.Right now(and you know some of the trials I am going through..financially and otherwise)I'm just trying to get my walk with the Lord in order.Money wise...I'd be THRILLED to be able to GIVE anything right now.I really get discouraged when I can't....but it is in the Lord's hands....it's all His.The truth is...whether you believe in "tithing"....or "giving"...ANYTHING any of us "have"...we have from God's Hand.God blesses some with more money than others.Unless you prescribe to the "prosperity gospel" crowd that teaches that you "give to get"and ALL God's children have the right to be financially wealthy(and I know you don't),then it is not a sin to be poor...or broke....but I will tell you from personal experience it is NOT a pleasant way to have to survive.All I can say is.....THANK God for His wonderful GRACE!!!As for tithing...Bro.Pastor...I love ya...you know that...but you ain't no Levite Priest ...and the Church ain't no storehouse (but I'll still help ya build that classroom building AND that gym...as God enables me to do so...if not in cash...then in sweat!)and we don't live by the laws that governed the nation of Israel either!By the way...that little sermonette ya did on "giving" prior to the offering was AWESOME.For a minute there...I thought you had been converted! I appreciate you preacher!

Greg Sr.

 

By the way....Malachi 3 is speaking directly to the nation of Israel....NOT the church!Just thought I'd throw that in for good measure...lol...context,context,context!Every false doctrine MAN ever invented was caused by jerking a "pet" verse or verses out of its CONTEXT!

Greg Sr.

 

Bump!...Anybody else got anything useful to say on this?

Greg Sr.