Sign Gifts

ugh...just had a huge post and my window crashed! grrrr...oh well...

This definition seems fairly synonymous or inextricably linked...ones leads to the other.

This is where we simply disagree. If we believe John 14:12 we believe that there are greater tasks to be accomplished. Notice how Christ promises: I assure you: The one who believes in Me will also do the works that I do. And he will do even greater works than these, because I am going to the Father.

The word for "he" in the second sentence there is the word parakletos.

Also we see the different outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the Scriptures. In the Old Testament it was given to individuals and since Pentecost it has been given to the Church. This is not to say God is in process or is inconsistent, there is a difference in the role of Holy Spirit in His plan from time to time. Particularly in eschatological terms, the Holy Spirit is given and wil be taken out of the world according to God's plan.

If we look back across Christian history we see, clearly imho, a more active outpouring of the Holy Spirit at different times. At certain times there has been a more active movement of the Spirit than others.

Also, I don't believe we can over-emphasize how God pours out His Spirit more readily on people ready to receive it. (That'll be controversial.) Honestly, I've been in some churches that haven't a seen a movement of the Holy Spirit in decades because they are frigid spiritually. In others I have seen such an outpouring happening regularly because they are passionately pursuing God.

I can't speak to individual churches, but I've seen some amazing things in too many missions churches to deny that sign gifts do exist. Are they given by God as much as some churches practice them? No. Are they given by God beyond what too many churches deny of them? Yes.

When we get out of our cultural boxes and reach into the broader world we can see some truly amazing works of God. I used to, for a time, border on the cessationist camp. Then I began traveling into 2nd and 3rd world countries...everything changed.

We can talk theory and personal exegesis all day long, but when we get out in among the work of God in the world I just see something different than what some churches offer.

The cessationist camp is too limiting to the person and nature of God. It denies God's sovereignty and ability to pour out the Holy Spirit for the Church. I don't know how we can speak into Scripture and say "It simply isn't of God for people to ________ as described in Scripture."

well that's a second draft I guess...:thumbs:

 

If I recall my church history correctly, there was no record of the gift of tongues from the time right after the Apostles to the time of Bethel Bible School in Topeka, Kansas.

In the fourth century, (I think I am correct) John Chrysostom wrote that the miracle gifts, had ceased long before his day, and that no one could say for certain what a manifestation of those gifts looked like.

In seminary we had to go to churches which spoke in tongues and healed folks. We taped much of the tongues and found that the same mess sounds would be interpreted with a different interpretation. Of the healing we saw none were true healing. So from the early 60's I have not been positive to those gifts for today. A.W.Tozer believed they were or could be for today, John R. Rice I think believed God could bring them back at anytime if He wanted to, to fulfill His plan. Those two men were much better studied than I, but I still have my problems with those gifts but if pushed, I would fall into the Rice camp.

I saw a 60's Minutes show back in the 70's I think that showed how much these pentecostal preachers made and how they would have some folks lined up to be healed, I would have never went along with the 60's Minutes deal if it didn't go along with what I had seen while in school.

 

I would be in the cessationist camp (well 9 of my toes anyway):

Hebrews 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed (indicative aorist) unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?​

"was confirmed" If the message "was confirmed" (simple past tense) to the Hebrew nation first by the Lord and then by His eye witnesses there is then no more need for the "sign" gifts as "signs" are for the Jew and the wall of partition has been broken down.

We (both Jew and Gentile) therefore now have the Scripture which records those "sign" gifts.

If we/they don't believe the Scripture, will they believe a sign?

I still have one toe left outside the cessationist camp because God does what He wants, when He wants without asking my permission or opinion.

So far (IMO of course) I have never seen anything resembling what I would call a "sign" gift. I would say that those who claim such are simply giving a display of the flesh, coming out of a desire to be closer to God.

Although I wouldn't refrain from calling a positive answer to prayer something "miraculous" or even a "miracle" (as a figure of speech).

In addition we need to be careful about "signs and wonders".
God is not the only one who can do these things.

And for another thing (probably the most important), the faith provided us by God our Father should be sufficient for the day without a "sign" from heaven.

But, if He chooses to give us a sign, who am I to tell Him He is wrong in so doing? In fact, He probably will take up "signs and wonders" again (and/or allow them) when the day of grace has had it's sunset.

My opinion of course.

HankD

 

I grew up Cessationist. but here over the last few yrs.. I am changing my mind... Not enough to be a Charasmatic, but I have seen some things in areas I know were of God... and to deny they were sign gifts would give Satan credit. For instance this happened to me last yr.

I for one have experienced the gift of tongues... NO not the "Jumpastartmyhonda"... junk... I am talking about the REAL gift of tongues...

In Oct 2008, when our newly hired Hispanic Strategist for the WV Baptist convention was being introduced in Spanish by one of our area ministers.. I set in my pew and interpretted what he was saying to my wife.... and the only Spanish I knew at that point was "Como te llama" and "Donde los banos?"!!! But I was able to interpret his whole introduction to the convention to my wife. About 5 minutes worth.. .afterwards, I double checked with the area minister, and I HAD GOTTEN IT RIGHT!...

THAT WAS WEIRD!... but ever since then, God has blessed my ministry with the Hispanics... I think God was showing me that he could use me no matter what excuse I could throw at him, because the language barrier was the one excuse holding me back...

I also happened again last night at an association Hispanic Thanksgiving dinner, and Bible Study... One of my friends was translating for me while Juan was speaking in Spanish.. and at one point, she noticed I was nodding in agreement before she told me what Juan was saying... and she asked, "Did you get that?".. and I HAD understood what Juan said. I can't explain it.. I mean, Juan talks fast!.. and While I know some basic Spanish words.. I still cannot understand logically while listening to it... but last night.. I just relaxed, and was listening.. and I UNDERSTOOD what he said.

NOW... am I learning by being around it? OR is it supernatural? OR is it a little bit of both?

PRObably a little bit of both... but even at that, I still count it a miracle!

 

I think this means that we will see many saved through the gospel, not that we will do miracles. I am not the only one who thinks this about this statement. There is nothing in the context here to indicate that the "works" are signs or miracles.

This is based purely on your own experiences and opinion. I believe that miracles still happen, but not the sign gifts. They are not the same thing.

I am not in a cultural box - I grew up mostly overseas with another language as my first language and my first schooling in another language, and have never really fit into this culture, plus I became a Christian later in life. So it's not a matter of being in a "cultural box." That is not a good argument for your view. I know missionaries see miraculous happenings in other places - I don't doubt this. But that is not the same thing as sign gifts being given to the body of believers.

No, it doesn't.

No, it doesn't.

 

It could reasonably go either way.

Post Moderns like to think everyone is in a cultural box. It is how they justify their current errors.

When people start using the "don't put God in a box" language they usually do not want to be held to scripture.

 

Who, then, are the Apostles of today? I'm not talking about missionaries, I'm talking about Apostles—those who have seen the risen Christ and were taught directly by Him through revelation.

Where are they?

 

No one qualifies but that is another subject.

 

So then the Bible doesn't actually have to say that some things have ceased.

 

What are you talking about? What qualifications involving the sign gifts were there then that no one would qualify for today like the Apostles? And why would anyone say they have ceased when scripture does not speak to that issue like it does with regards to the office of Apostle.

 

The gifts are given to men according to God's grace and will. So was the calling to be an Apostle. How did Paul qualify when he was called and set apart? No where in the Scriptures does it say that the office of Apostle would be temporary or would cease, yet there have been no Apostles since the First Century.

My point is that the silence of the Scriptures concerning the cessation of sign gifts is not evidence that they have not ceased.

 

And it is an unnecessary point in this discussion as I have not made any such assertion. My point is that no one can say they have ceased. Such proclamations are not found in scripture. And it would not surprise me if a Biblical occurrence of tongues was reported as has been done on several occasions in this century.

 

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge [direct revelation from God], it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For [because] we know [through direct revelation from God] in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Paul said that prophecies, tongues, and special knowledge will cease. He mentioned that "we" (the apostles) know and prophesy "in part." They still did not have everything revealed yet. He then mentions "that which is perfect" ("or complete"). When this is come, then the things that are "in part" (tongues, prophecies, and direct revelation from God) will be gone.

Could it be that the whole of the Word of God is "that which is perfect/complete"? Once God finished His Word, He ended the modus operandi of early church sign gifts.

 

That is the argument made by cessationists but I am not convinced that even with scripture we fully know anything. We will when Christ returns.

 

I agree.

IMO, apostolic succession is necessary for "sign" gifts to continue.

This presents a difficulty since Hebrews says that those who were part of the confirmation to the Hebrew nation (the book of Hebrews obviously written to Hebrew citizens) had to have "heard Him" plus they (although not a specific requirement had to be a Hebrew citizen.

So I suppose a messianic Jew could say that they "heard" Him (via the Scripture) and therefore would qualify as a doer of "sign" gifts.

Rather, I agree that Paul meant these gifts would pass off the scene with the last departure of the last apostle leaving behind a completed canon of Scripture.

Though,as previoulsy indicated, God does whatever He pleases in spite of our Systematic Theologies.

A very thoughtful and stimulating debate.
Thanks to all.


HankD

 

Based on what?

 

Hi Rev,

Notice I said IMO (In My Opinion) which opinion is scripturally based upon the the Book of Hebrews:


Hebrews 2

3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

The writter to the Hebrews said the "great salvation" was spoken and then was confirmed by those who "heard Him" (presumably the apostles and/or disciples). It also says that these were the ones who received the ability to show "signs and wonders". Therefore (IMO) these are apostolic gifts.

While it is an opinion, it is an opinion based upon a scriptural point of view.

I suppose anyone could say that they have "heard" the Lord by reading the Scripture, but I dont think that is what Paul had in mind. These were apostles who were ear/eye witnesses of the Lord.

Personally, I don't believe in an apostolic succession because (again IMO) such a teaching is outside the scope of the NT and the apostlic mission.

I was playing "devil's advocate" and proposing the argument of apostolic succession because such a succession would be necessary for "sign" gifts to exist as the apostles) were (as far as we know) the only ones granted this ability (Unless one wants to believe some of the post apostolic accounts of such "signs and wonders" from church history).

HankD​

 

I understood that. I just simply asked on what you based it. I used to be in your camp but I fail to see it any longer.

Very good argument you have given me something to think on.

 

My concern with your view after looking at it carefully is that the author of Hebrews talks about distributing sign gifts but does not limit them to the Apostles:

Heb 2:4 while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

 

A long, but very interesting video series on tongues by John McArthur. There a numerous videos. This link starts with the first one, which will link you to all of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3cLChnG_mE&feature=related