Sign Gifts

Yeah I really don't believe this is about salvation, but about miraculous works that Christ has been doing (cf. John 2-12.) Particularly because of the unique language Christ uses, the obviou link is the miraculous signs that Christ has used to verify His messiahship.

Note a parrallel passage in John 10:37-38, the miraculous deeds here are referent in John 12:14.

Given the context, speaking of post-resurrection actions after the giving of the Holy Spirit (post-Pentecost) I don't know how we can see this verse otherwise. (I'd enjoy seeing an exegetically, textually based reply that does so.)

Christ here is speaking about miraclous signs that will be given to believers through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. The rest of the New Testament is spent talking about how they are to be administred and understood.

It is obvious miraculous sign gifts are powerful and need to be carefully understood. But if these gifts vanished some 10 years after Pentecost, like some fundamentalists suggest, then why did Paul waste ink in 1 Corinthians 14?

I don't think so. I am not advocating for unlimited access to the gifts...but I am saying that the testimony of the NT and historically verified stories lead us to say that maybe God is still using miracles to communicate His Gospel.

I am not saying that when someone stands up in our church and starts speaking in tongues that have no qualification with the NT writings about them that it is a miraclous sign gift. I am not saying that most pentecostal/charimatic beliefs on this are correct. (Though there are worse things than being lined up with authentic charismatics.)

I am saying there is a New Testament and historical basis for the miraclous sign gifts being used in appropriate ministry settings today.

I fail to see the difference.

That said I return to my original point that we have a track record of seeing the miraclous sign gifts given by God more frequently in mission fields and places where church wide persecution happen than in our churches. Maybe it is because God gifts them strongly in places that need His support for genuine church starts than in established church work. Maybe it is because we don't look for them very much.

That said I am not advocating the popular pentecostal position. I don't believe that most expressions we would encounter in established church work are probably legitimate. Not too many years ago I attended a pentecostal tent revival in south Texas. Every night the Holy Spirit seemed to arrive more readily as the music swelled and emotions ran high. I don't believe, given the testimony of Scripture, that the demonstration of these gifts was legitimate. My view, rightly understood, would be that I am open to the gifts, but cautious about their administration in established church work.

 

Here is one that I think you might find of interest. I thought it was pretty good. He goes on, using the context of the whole book, to say what he thinks is meant here by "works."
http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue65.htm

Here is another one on the "works" of John 14:12:
http://www.sbts.edu/documents/tschreiner/John14_12.pdf

I see a difference in doing miracles and sign gifts, even in basic definition. Some OT characters and the apostles were given the power and authority to perform miracles, such as healing, casting out demons, and even raising the dead. The list of gifts in the epistles does not mention either casting out demons or raising the dead as gifts. The only sign gifts, given to the church by the power of the Holy Spirit, were speaking in tongues and the gift of healing, as far as I can tell.

Signs gifts are miraculous, but miracles are not necessarily sign gifts.

 

You are correct Rev, the Book of Hebrews doesn't mention "Apostles" using that very word but it does seem to limit the gifts to "those who heard Him".

The Book of Acts then seems to limit those "sign gifts" to the Apostles.

Acts 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.​

Acts 5:12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.​

Combined with the statement from the Apostle Paul:​

1 Corinthians 13
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.​

"that which is perfect is come" is IMO pointing to the completed canon of Scripture.​

"that which is done away" IMO is the sign gift ministry of the Apostles.​

These scriptural elements are from whence I draw my opinion as a "sign" cessationist.​

No need to be concerned Revmitchell (at least for this view which I hold) as it is well within the sphere of conservative non-charismatic Christian orthodoxy and held by many (if that matters to you). ​

HankD

 

How ans where does it do that?

At those particular moments yes it does.

My concern with this idea is that we do not currently have perfect knowledge. We do not fully know as we are fully known (v.12). I do see that Possibility at the return of Christ but it cannot be now.

I did not say you were anything of the sort.

 

Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;​

That is why I used the words "seems to"

"The Book of Acts then seems to limit those "sign gifts" to the Apostles".

OK I see your point and in fact I agree that at some point in time (holding to an eschatological dispensational point of view) the use of "signs" will (perhaps) be re-established.

OK, I only mentioned the "orthodox" part in my view just in case you didn't know the several verses used for the supposition of the cessation of "sign gifts".

HankD

 

You have made the most reasonable case for your position I have seen to date. Usually those who hold your view start and end with 1 Cor 13. I am not convinced but I do see why your are. God Bless

 

Signs and sign gifts are not the same thing. Sign gifts were given to the church (see 1 Cor.). Performing signs and wonders was an ability given to the apostles by Jesus in the Gospels. The apostles were able to perform miracles that are not sign gifts given to the church, such as raising the dead.

 

There is no need to divorce the Apostles from the church.

 

I am not divorcing the Apostles from the church!!

I am saying that their ability to do miracles were not sign gifts. Sign gifts are gifts given by God via the Holy Spirit to the church. The Apostles were able to do some of these miracles before they had the Holy Spirit, so these were not gifts given via the Holy Spirit.

I really thought it was basic understanding that the miracles performed by the Apostles and the sign gifts given to the church were not one and the same. I have never heard them declared the same thing except here.

 

I realize that is not your intent but it is the effect.

Do not set aside Pentecost. They did not wait for nothing.

I have never heard that taught by anyone. You are the first. And it is not basic nor common.

 

The disciples were given power and authority to cast out devils and to cure diseases.

Luke 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.

What is significant about this is that Judas also had these powers.

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So, this ought to make us all aware, just because a person can perform miraculous works, does not mean they are of God. Satan is a great counterfeiter.

I personally have never witnessed what I would consider a real sign gift. I have heard tongues which I do not enjoy in the least.

I tend to lean toward those who believe the sign gifts ended with the completion of the scriptures. It all comes down to what is meant by that which is perfect, meaning complete.

1 Cor 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

This does show that some gifts will continue, as charity never faileth. It does specifically mention prophecies as failing, which seems to suggest there will be false prophecies. Tongues will cease, and knowledge shall vanish. I am not exactly sure what this knowledge is.

Verses 9-11 would seem to agree with the completion of the scriptures, but verse 12 seems to indicate more. It speaks of "face to face" and knowing as I am known. This seems to point toward the Lord returning.

We do know that faith, hope, and charity still abide in vs. 13. But the Lord suggested there will not be much faith in the world when he comes.

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Perhaps the problem is that we do not have enough faith today.

 

Thank you Rev.

Also I made wriggle room in my position because (first of all, who am I?) it is clear that our God does what He wants, when He wants, whenever He wants without regard to our views.

Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

HankD​

 

I am not afraid of dogmatism if it is based on scripture. God is bound by His word therefore nothing He does would contradict it and we should rely on no experience that cannot be supported by scripture.

 

On this we certainly agree. As you know however, people can and do make all kinds of errors with the true meaning of that Scripture.


HankD

 

But Rev, the Apostles peformed miracles before Pentecost!! These miracles were not sign gifts; they were signs. Sign gifts are the gifts given to believers, listed in 1 Cor. and a couple of other places.

Also, the apostles raised the dead. Raising the dead is not one of the gifts listed in the Epistles because it is not a sign gift. It was a miraculous power given to the apostles.

Hey - I've passed 10,000 posts and didn't even notice!