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simultaneously saint and sinner

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by MojoTurbo, Feb 10, 2011.

  1. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    If a Christian rebels against God for one week, are they not portraying an "impenitent and rebellious" heart? How about if they stay away from God for one month, or one year? How about a decade? If this Christian returns to God, like I have seen them do, what does that say about their time away from God? Either they were re-saved, which I think is unscriptural or they lived like a lost person for the amount of time they were away from God. Wouldn't this constitute "practicing" sin?
     
  2. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    Robert you are trying to justify practicing sin in the believer. What our daily character reveals about us shows what is our eternal state. According to scripture a believer cannot practice sin. We are not only sealed unto salvation but we are sealed unto righteousness as a practice. It is not about a time period, it is about a lifestyle. For a true believer to even think of returning to sin is more then they can handle much less actually carrying it our for any amount of time. Yes we may sin on occasions, but to practice sin, becoming a daily lifestyle, we are kept from that because of the new nature. We may battle sin daily and confess and repent daily, but the lost live in it with any suggestion of turning or battling against that which besets us. Sin is the losts nature.
    The problem is that satan has convinced many in the churches (pastors) that Christians can be saved and then rebel and return to sinning. The bible says that is false and that is what we need to believe, not false testimonies. A person cannot be in repentance/faith and rebellion at the same time. Faith requires following, rebellion requires doing it our way. The two are exclusive and to keep us in the faith that we have been given we are sealed with the Spirit. Only those who are in an active ongoing following of the Lord are true Christians. It is a narrow way and a straight path, not a broad way and a crooked path.
    Scriptural references;
    1John 3:7-10
    Romans 8:14
    matt 7:14
     
    #42 freeatlast, Feb 14, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 14, 2011
  3. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    It can actually be the heart of a believer, too. As a child of God my heart is still rebelious due to my sin nature, hence the reason I (and we all) sin daily. The difference is I'm not a slave to sin anymore, and I am convicted when I am rebellious.
     
  4. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    This very warning shows a true believer can walk by the flesh, or it's a moot warning.
     
  5. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    The passage does not say to the believer to stop walking in the flesh as if that is their practice to live a flesh driven life because that cannot happen. 1John3. It is saying to the believer to walk always in the Spirit and you will never give way to the flesh. The idea is not that some are living in a lifestyle of sin, but that we can live above sin if we walk in the Spirit.
    For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
    And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
    If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
     
  6. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    You are denying the truth of the warning that if we do not walk by the spirit we will walk by the flesh.

    The Corinthian church is evidence that true believers were living by the "natural man".
     
  7. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    First no Christian has ever been accused as being a natural man. That is a designation for the lost.
    Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
    But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
    Paul was prodding them because of their pride in thinking themselves as spiritual.
    There is no question that the Corinthian church was out of sorts and in fact there is not a single commendation given them, but what is also true is that no one individual was practicing sin. Paul is setting straight what was miss-understandings as to personal practice and church procedure. What was happening was that the church as a whole was failing in many areas, the Lord's table, gifts of the spirit, marriage, baptism for the dead, holding certain teachers higher then another, women being silent, and false teaching in general that had crept in, but it was not about the practice of sin in an individual as that cannot happen to a believer 1John 3. Not only that, there was question in Paul's mind that they were even saved. You can see that in the second letter. Here he tells them to examine themselves to be sure they are saved because after they had received what we call the first letter they showed signs of not changing.

    Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

    This raises a question as to how do we examine ourselves. The answer is then given.

    For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

    True believers cannot do anything against the truth according to that verse and 1John 3 agrees. it is not about doing a sin against the Lord it is taking a stand and living against revealed truth. Christians just cannot do it.

     
    #47 freeatlast, Feb 14, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 14, 2011
  8. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    True, but the believers in Corinth were living like the natural man.
    Actually, they were running the church and making spiritual decisions using the flesh.
    Completely disagree. They were the poster child of believers "practicing" sin.
    Exactly, and this very fact proves they were living in sin.
    Here he tells them to examine themselves to be sure they are saved because after they had received what we call the first letter they showed signs of not changing.

    ...yet they were true believers.

     
  9. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    A Christians is not a sinner biblically. We are saints with occasional sins.
     
  10. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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    I sin daily. I don't wish to sin but at times I sin deliberately knowing full well I should not sin. sometimes I sin by ommision. Sometimes pride, sometimes anger, excess etc.

    I am simultaneously a saint and a sinner. I am in a lifelong process of sanctification. I don't just sin occasionally but frequently.
    The frequency and severity of sin in the life of a Christian should and will decrease as that person grows.

    Anyone that thinks he only sins "occasionally" is deceived.
     
  11. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of who I am chief.” - Apostle Paul
     
  12. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    If you sin daily then you need to stop, plain and simple. You do not honor the Lord by it. You sin because your love sin not because you cannot stop. Jesus said this;
    John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    We are either saints who from time to time sin or we are sinners lost needing salvation. The two are not joined. And anyone who practices sin is lost.
    He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
     
  13. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    Good verse. Paul, not Saul, claimed to still be a sinner. Christians should not sin, don't have to sin, but we all do occasionally. Some Christians even spend years away from the Lord, living in sin. But God is faithful and will not abandon them but will convict and restore them to fellowship.
     
  14. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    Absolutely false. Once the process starts a Christian never turns back. 1 John 3
    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    What happens is that some who once made a false profession do eventually come and get saved, but if they were practicing sin they were not saved in the beginning according to scripture.

    1john 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    And no Paul was not suggesting that he was living in sin. He was relating to himself as to what he did to the church. He knew he was a saint and not a sinner by definition.
     
    #54 freeatlast, Feb 15, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 15, 2011
  15. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Wrong. Did he or did he not say "of who I AM chief"? He did not say "of whom I WAS chief".
     
  16. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    Again, you are wrong!
     
  17. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    Dale C said...


    Freeatlast responded...

    Freeatlast, you sin daily just like Dale does and just like I do and just like every other Spirit born child of God does.

    Sin is anything less then the sinless pefection ot the Lord Jesus Christ.

    And not just outwardly manifested things like commiting adultery, murdering somebody, beating up your wife, stealing money from a cash register somewhere, etc etc etc.

    Sin is anything less then pure perfection...in your thought life as well as physical acts of sin.

    * The quick lustful look
    * The quick lustfull thought
    * Thinking of revenge against someone.
    * Being pridefull
    * Being happy when an enemy is hit with calamity
    * hating a candidate because he is a liberal and you are a conservative(or vice versa)
    *Hoping a co-worker does not get a promotion so that YOU might get it.

    Etc etc etc etc etc.

    How are you doing with all of this? Hopefully as bad as I am doing.

    Thats why the GRACE of God is so important. We swim around in it all day and all night long. Like being submerged in water...we live submerged in Gods never ending GRACE.

    The complete forgiviness of our sins...all of them, past present and future...accomplished 2000 years ago on the cross....so that, as a result, God can say...

    IT...IS...FINISHED!!! The atonement for our sins took place that day on the cross.

    And God can now say...

    We couldnt keep track of all of our sins if we tried. Of course we take things to God, (He loves hearing from His kids!) but we couldnt possibly take every single thing to God...we would be doing it all day and all night long. We would all lose our jobs!

    Gods admonition to us now is to live in the goodness of "ressurection life". Christ living in us, leading as we go in the goodness of His blessing.

    Jesus said...In that day you will know that I am in the Father, the Father is in me, and I am in You!

    Christ live in us...constantly purging us, cleansing us, and renewing us.

    What a wonderfull God it is who lives in us, and works through us.
     
    #57 Alive in Christ, Feb 16, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 16, 2011
  18. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    if you sin daily then you need to stop as you are not glorifying the Lord.
    No one has to sin it is always a choice and is always rebellion. [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
     
  19. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    I am curious and have two questions.

    1. Do you always do everything perfectly?
    2. Do you sometimes not do something you should do?
     
  20. freeatlast

    freeatlast New Member

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    Answer me this then I will answer you. Do you believe this scripture and which one are you. The one who keeps them or the one who does not?

    1john 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
     
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