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Featured Sin and Substitutionary Atonement salvation

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Sep 6, 2012.

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  1. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    You are misstating the Christus Victor view.
     
    #41 Michael Wrenn, Sep 10, 2012
  2. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    You don't know when I was saved. I walked the aisle during a revival when I was ten because I was kind of prompted to after my sister did it, but that's not when I was saved.

    However, I firmly hold to the Christus Victor view and will not change my mind as I believe it is the view which does the most justice to the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus and to God's character.
     
    #42 Michael Wrenn, Sep 10, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 10, 2012
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Ok, I will ask you again. According to the Christus Victor view is the death of Christ = actual shedding his blood unto death, absolutely necessary to save sinners and without none could be saved?

    Please don't respond that it was necessary in the sense to prove he was human as there are many other characteristics that prove he was human.
     
    #43 The Biblicist, Sep 10, 2012
  4. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    Read about it for yourself since you don't believe I am a Christian if I hold to it. And I'm not being mean; you just don't believe anything I say.
     
    #44 Michael Wrenn, Sep 10, 2012
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I have read it several times and long before I came on this forum. This false atonement theory is no atonement at all as it completely denies that Christ had to shed his blood unto death to save anyone. Indeed, this theory places more emphasis on the EXAMPLE of Christ and his resurrection power over sin but not on His death. The scriptures do not merely place emphasis on his death but absolutely deny salvation is possible apart from him shedding his blood unto death.
     
    #45 The Biblicist, Sep 10, 2012
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    First, I never denied you were a Christian. That is your straw man argument. There are many saved people who have since salvation been led astray but are still saved. If you will revisit my post, I said I optimistically assume you are saved but just messed up theologically.

    Second, This "victim" concept of humanity, victimized by sin, Death and Satan with God coming to the rescue is a complete distortion.

    Third, the life of Christ as some kind of moral example instead of necessary to satisfy the righteous demands of God's law misses the point entirely.

    Fourth, the biblical emphasis on the death of Christ is there is no remission from sins apart from the shedding of blood whereas the resurrection justifies that Christ completely satisfied the full JUST demands of God toward sin and salvation.
     
    #46 The Biblicist, Sep 11, 2012
  7. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    The Christus Victor view is not the Example view.

    Here are two good articles; the first is by Greg Boyd. Now I know you probably hate Boyd, but read through this; it is excellent.

    http://reknew.org/2008/01/the-christus-victor-view-of-the-atonement/

    The second article: http://loveacceptforgive.com/2009/09/16/the-christus-victor-view-of-atonement/
     
    #47 Michael Wrenn, Sep 11, 2012
  8. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    You said the Christus Victor view presents another Jesus and another gospel. So, if I hold to it, you are saying I am not a true Christian, are you not?
     
    #48 Michael Wrenn, Sep 11, 2012
  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I understand they are not the same view but the bottom line is that the Christus Victor view includes the Example view as one of its primary emphasis.


    As I said previously, there is much I agree with in this view except its fundemnetal bases.

    1. Satan's power in this world was established by Adam and Eve's choice to advocate their inheritance/rule rights and yeild them to Satan. Eve only was deceived but not Adam - this was yeild by willful consent. Hence, Satan's rule is by consent of those he rules over. They are captives by CONSENT! They are "SERVANTS" by nature (Eph. 2:2-3). Their servitude is JUST because it is by willful consent. It is man that has rebelled against God by willful consent to Satan's rule and that is the GUILT of their JUST bondage.

    Hence, they are not VICTIMS as this theory presents them but they are ACCOMPLICES in open rebellion against God.



    2. Moreover these words show the deviousness of this theory:

    Salvation clearly involves forgiveness of sins, but this forgiveness is itself rooted in a person getting freed from Satan’s grip

    Not so! It is rooted in the redemptive work of Christ and freedom is a consequence not the cause or root of forgiveness. Remission of sins is rooted in the blood of Christ shed in order to obtain remission of sins.

    Christ as the "second" Adam provides the JUST basis to reclaim what Adam forfeited for all humanity as the appointed representative of mankind and willfully so by rebellion against God. God's wrath is justly revealed from heaven against sin. That wrath is satisfied by the a RIGHTEOUS man taking upon himself the JUST consequences of sin for those he represents as the "second" Adam thus reclaiming the inheritance God gave to man through the resurrection. Satan's reign is by WILLFUL CONSENT BY THE GOVERNED but Christ is the one human being who does not give that consent and acts as a Second Adam to reclaim the inheritance through refusal to bow to Satan and then to reclaim it for those he represents by satisfying the wrath of God against their WILLFUL CONSENT to submit to Satan (sin) and restore them to their former position through His death and resurrection.
     
    #49 The Biblicist, Sep 11, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 11, 2012
  10. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    I guess further discussion is not necessary because we'll never agree. I agree with some of what you say but only some.
     
    #50 Michael Wrenn, Sep 11, 2012
  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I guess not!
     
    #51 The Biblicist, Sep 11, 2012
  12. Michael Wrenn

    Michael Wrenn New Member

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    You'll see me in heaven, despite the error of my ways. :)
     
    #52 Michael Wrenn, Sep 11, 2012
  13. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    It seems this discussion is about atonement and how that works. I'm personally not aware of a Christus Victor view however by the words I think I get its meaning and based on just the title seems to match a little of my view. The last thread we discussed atonement we weren't really discussing this aspect but the larger "how is one saved". Atonement is one aspect and I want to give more substance to the specific topic of Atonement

    What is my view? Well, to be honest I'm still working it out. However, I will express to the best of my ability how I see it. As biblicist points out at the begining of this thread in order to understand the christian doctrine of Atonement we must first discussed what is being atoned. In the begining we see that man was made in the image of God. The likeness of God. When we sinned several things happened. We corrupted the image of God in us, we fell under the bondage of corruption and death, we became slaves to sin, we seperated our selves from God, and we became enemies of God. This being the case what does God do then?
    Well, from the Catholic Encyclopedia we see that
    or More plainly put God wants to reunite man to himself. He wants to restore us back to carrying his image and being united to himself. Keeping this in mind I think that Atonement didn't happen just at Calvary but began with the Incarnation and completed at the resurrection. By the incarnation Jesus unites himself to humanity. Our view of redeeming something we can pay to get it back or take it by force conqure it back so to speak. To whom does Jesus pay to get back humanity? Satan? I find that repulsive. No when Jesus became incarnate uniting himself with us he "invaded" our world and takes us back. Which follows his Motus Operandi. He took Israel from Pharaoh by force he didn't buy them back from Pharaoh. They were taken away from bondage. Yet this leads to the question of why Jesus had to die? Two points of thought occur to me with regard to this. The first is that by his death and resurrection he defeats death since he is united with humanity at his incarnation. Secondly There is the connection of Calvary to the Pascal sacrifice of the Jews and the slain lamb. With this in mind at this point I favor Aquinas
    However, I'm still formulating it in my mind.
     
    #53 Thinkingstuff, Sep 11, 2012
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    #54 Yeshua1, Sep 11, 2012
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Withiout the shedding of blood, NO remission for sins...

    the blood of goats/lambs did NOT have the means to remit sins, ONLY the blood of jesus!
     
    #55 Yeshua1, Sep 11, 2012
  16. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Did I say anything about no shedding of blood? I clearly indicated that there is the connection between the passover lamb (sacrificed lamb) and Jesus at calvary. I did say that his death and resurrection defeated death. I also showed satisfaction. So I don't know what your beef is. On the on the other hand I don't believe that God was so angry with us that he needed to beat up Jesus and kill him instead of us. That would make God insane. In the later view Grace is a result of sacrifice. In my view love and Grace lead to sacrifice.
     
    #56 Thinkingstuff, Sep 11, 2012
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God wrath was upon jesus, and he did indeed get "beat up", but He took it as a willing person, knowing salvation for sinners would result by his brutal death!

    For it pleased the father to have jesus bruised/wound/bloodied/and killed for our sins and iniquities, and jesus came to earth to willingly do that for those to come that would get saved by His death on their behalf!
     
    #57 Yeshua1, Sep 11, 2012
  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Isa. 53:10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:

    Divine pleasure and satisfaction refer to his HOLY pleasure in seeing JUSTICE administered against sin - and our inquitties were "LAID UPON HIM". His justice was "satisfied" in pouring out his wrath upon the Substitute for sin.
     
    #58 The Biblicist, Sep 11, 2012
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God the father did NOT order to Son to die, he willingly came to die !
     
    #59 Yeshua1, Sep 11, 2012
  20. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    So lets see if I get this straight. This is your view of God.

    I have a son I tell him not to take the fruit off the table and he does. I'm so angry that I have to kill something and nothing will work except I kill my son. So his brother says hey. Kill me instead. So I beat him up and kill him to satiate my anger? Because it makes me happy to torture and kill someone when I get angry. Does that sound like God to you? If someone did that where I live not only would he be thrown in jail but he would need to visit the shrink.
    I like what one blogger said
    first let me note that hebrews 9 says
    and also note that Romans says
    in short there is an offence to justice. However, it wasn't because God was so angry that he needed to kill someone. But rather he joined us with himself at his incarnation as it says in Is.
    and hebrews states
    and Colosians
    So by joining with us he lifts us up making satisfaction to Divine Justice by his shed blood. Which follows with Romans
    As I've said I'm still resolving this in my mind.
     
    #60 Thinkingstuff, Sep 11, 2012
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