sin and the sinner

"For God so loved THE WORLD that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" John 3:16

We were all once alienated from God and were His enemies in our minds by wicked works. (Col. 1:21) It was while we were in this state that He sent His Son to die for us. I'd say God does love sinners.

 

If you want to discuss the doctrine of Total Depravity... Which is the T in the TULIP doctrine drop into the Calvinism/Arminian Section as I started a thread on it... If you are curious... I won't discuss it here... Any takers?... Brother Glen

 

[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]

 

I seems to me that some of you are going to extremes here. For example . . .

Brutus:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Brother Glen; you're hitting the nail right on!!!I don't understand why people can't grasp that,it's quite simple God's love is indeed universal but it is limited in degree and His hatred is such that abhores the sin and the sinner.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, if it's "quite simple", then why the contradiction between "God's love is indeed universal" and "His hatred is such that abhores the sin and the sinner"? Are you saying that God loves and hates the sinner at the same time? Or by saying "universal" you don't really mean "universal"?

tyndale1946:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If you want to discuss the doctrine of Total Depravity... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't see where this has anything to do with our discussion as to whether God loves the sinner or not. By definition, we are admitting that the sinner is depraved - every last one of them. This is just a distraction from the central point.

JAMES2:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Other posts including mine have explained the Romans and John 3:16 verses quoted in the other posts. Why is it that people just absolutely refuse to listen to what those verses say and merrily go alone with what they WANT them to say? It is really sad to see that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What "they WANT them to say?" How much clearer can a verse be? What part of the word "love" in this verse don't you understand? Either this verse means that God loved sinners, or it's one of the worst translations in the history of the Bible. Furthermore, I don't recall any adequate explaination of this verse.

Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

I fail to see any motivation for a God who hates humanity in it's sin to be interested in saving them.

 

[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]

 

Wow, James! You sure got into some detail in your response! I appreciate the time it took for you to do that.

You used the word "absurd" a lot . . . I don't recall making any claims that fell into the areas you deemed "absurd".

In my opinion, you are making this a far more complicated question than it needs to be. In a nutshell, the original topic was simply does God love the sinner? (I think we all agree that God hates sin . . . right?)

A number of statements were made to indicate that God does indeed hate sinners, with a few scripture verses to support that view.

Now I introduce Romans 5:8 and suddenly the subject expands to: the doctrine of total depravity; whether God loves every person without exception; who SAINTS are; who Christ died for; refuting that God died for those in Hell and whether Christ died for every last person versus the elect.

It seems that while we both write in English, we are not communicating at all!

Now, maybe I can clarify my point:

Romans 5:8 says "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

This clearly states that God loves sinners. Whether it's the elect, who were sinner prior to salvation, or all mankind, it doesn't matter to my point: God loved sinners.

It has been said that God doesn't love sinners at all - that the entire concept is erroneous. Yet, this verse plainly states that God DID love sinners - at the very least a certain number of them, depending on your view regarding election.

Either God loves sinners - or He doesn't. I think it's a contradiction to indicate that God loves AND hates sinners.

 

[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]

 

[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]

 

Thank you too, Brutus, for posting such a question.

James: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> So God loves the Elect who were sinners before they were regenerated, and does not love those he did not elect.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This answers my question. In your view, the sinners referred to in Romans 5:8 are only those elect who are sinners.

So to correct the phrase: "God hates the sin, but loves the sinner" it would be better stated: "God hate the sin, but loves the sinner IF the sinner is also one of the elect".

I'm not disagreeing with you (or agreeing) - I'm just trying to resolve what appears to be an obvious conflict in scripture. Perhaps Paul should have worded his statement differently, since the fact that we were sinners makes no real difference since we are also the elect. The other sinners, those not of the election, are condemned regardless.

Thanks for sharing your views!

 

The heated and sharp exchanges on this thread made me think of Paul's remarks to Timothy: "And the servant of the Lord must not strive but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves..." (2 Ti. 2:24&25)

Just some food for thought.

 

[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]

 

Well, since you guys are on the same side of this argument it seems odd to me to ask each other if the exchange was heated. You weren't on the receiving end of each others posts (not in a disagreeable way, that is). I wonder what Glorybound thinks? Anyway, I love a thoughtful and passionate debate just as the two of you seem to. I know, however, that I can sometimes put being right before being loving. I saw shades of that here. Speak the truth in love! God bless guys!

[ February 13, 2002: Message edited by: aiki ]

 

Y'all come on over the waters fine!... Brother Old Line Baptist Glen

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brutus:
Aiki;Why wonder,let's ask em! Glorybound; did you feel that any of our exchanges were heated and or sharp? Please be honest.If you were offended by anything that was directed at you we want to know.I want no hard feelings over anything that was said.One thing that we must do is agree to disagree and that can be done without hurting anyone! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe . . . this is good. It's always a good thing to make sure we're not being offensive. That's the problem with online forums - it's hard sometimes to discern the others intentions based on simply the written word. There's no sense of "tone of voice". So many times others will read our words and . . . I know this is hard to believe . . . misunderstand our intended meaning.

As far as "agreeing to disagree", I guess that may be what it's come down to. But I really wasn't trying to debate (maybe that's how it came across) as much as I was trying to figure out the stated opinions regarding the original question in light of certain scriptures.

At any rate, I suppose the discussion has wound down at this point. I think I understand the view James (and I guess Brutus) has regarding the subject.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot... ... No, I'm not offended. But I appreciate the concern!

 

[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]