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Since you have been a Baptist, have you . . .

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Craigbythesea, Feb 18, 2006.

  1. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    No, they do NOT teach a sanctification based justification!

    And, of course, very few Roman Catholic theologians would go so far as did James in the New Testament,

    James 2:14. What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
    15. If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
    16. and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
    17. Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
    18. But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
    19. You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
    20. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
    21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
    22. You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
    23. and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
    24. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
    25. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
    26. For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

    Most Baptists, unlike most Roman Catholics, confuse the works of the Law with the works of Christ.

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    When I purchased a house six years ago, realtors and attorneys and many others associated themselves with me in the purchase, but it was I and I alone who paid the price, and everyone who lives in the houses knows that.

    [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Very poor analogy considering that RCC's teach that pennance and possibly purgatory are necessary to pay for sin.
     
  3. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    Sanctification which is part of salvation and justification. </font>[/QUOTE]Sanctification occurs after death? Failure to be sanctified results in your having to pay for your sins?

    I don't think so.
     
  4. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

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    Sanctification which is part of salvation and justification. </font>[/QUOTE]Sanctification occurs after death? Failure to be sanctified results in your having to pay for your sins?

    I don't think so.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I know I've gone through this with you before ScottJ so why are you acting all surprised? [​IMG]
     
  5. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

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    Forgot to mention that Catholics see purgatory involved here.
     
  6. Diggin in da Word

    Diggin in da Word New Member

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    Craig, what is this book you posted with the german title you say to read? Is it something you can read online? And is it in english?
     
  7. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    NTS is not a book; it is a periodical:

    New Testament Studies is an international periodical whose contributors comprise the leading New Testament scholars writing in the world today. The journal publishes original articles and short studies in English, French and German on a wide range of issues pertaining to the origins, history and theology of the New Testament and early Christianity. Always well-documented and thoughtfully written, these articles are representative of a discipline which has witnessed significant new advances in recent years. Ample space is given to exegetical, historical and interpretative treatments alike.

    Editor: Judith Lieu, Kings College, London, UK.

    Published under the auspices of Studiorum Novi Testamenti Societas

    To the best of my knowledge it is not available on line and the article that I cited has not been, to the best of my knowledge, translated into English.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. standingfirminChrist

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    Then why tell me to read it? I don't speak German, nor can I read it.
     
  9. Diggin in da Word

    Diggin in da Word New Member

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    yes, what gives with that? and the many scholars that the cemeteries have produced today, I would not reccommend to anyone. They are mostly doing their translations from W & H.
     
  10. Brice

    Brice New Member

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    You could see how this would make daily life quite difficult right? Do you wear t-shirts made in China or South America? Are you consenting to outsourcing and the loss of American Manufacturing? Do you shop at Wal-Mart? Are you consenting to the sale of extremely non-Christian products at that particular store? How about Target? How about restaurants that sell alcohol? How about gas stations that sell products that are obviously contrary to the faith? The list goes on and on. You won’t pay respects to a loved one, but I bet you you’ll get your deodorant at Wal-Mart or your gas at BP.
     
  11. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    I didn't know that you don't know German.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. mcdirector

    mcdirector Active Member

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    I have to do a language for my PhD. German is as good as any of the others when you have my language skills. (read -- my pitiful language skills) :D
     
  13. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    If you have not yet read K. G. Klemm’s article, you have no basis to find fault with it.

    [​IMG] Very funny, they quit doing that more than 100 years ago!

    [​IMG]
     
  14. standingfirminChrist

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    of course W & H have long since died, but most of the modern translations are based on the W & H scripts
     
  15. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    I can't find the list right at the moment, but I believe most work with the NA, not the WH. I'm not sure though. I will look when I return home.
     
  16. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    It absolutely amazes me that any Baptist living in the enlightened 20th-21ist century could possibly believe such grossly pitiful nonsense about the Roman Catholic Church.

    The true teaching of the Roman Catholic Church on this issue was first taught in Latin and English speaking people with poor reading skills often have a difficult time understand Roman Catholic theology when it is expressed in English terminology.

    The terms Co-redemtrix and Co-redeemer both use the Latin prefix cum that is found in many words in the English language meaning “with” in the sense of “accompaniment” or “associate with.” Compare the English word “co-worker.” Co-workers don’t do each other’s work; they work with each other.

    When Roman Catholic theologians speak of Mary as the Co-redeemer they are speaking of Mary in her suffering at the cross. When Roman Catholic theologians speak of fellow Christians as co-redeemers they are speaking of our suffering with Christ and the part that we play in bringing the message of the gospel to others.

    From the Roman Catholic point of view, co-redeemer does not suggest equality or partnership with, but dependence upon and subordination to the Redeemer who is Christ our Lord. Compare 1 Cor. 3:9,

    1 Cor. 3:9. For we are God's co-workers; you are God's field, God's building. (NAB, 1971)

    1 Cor. 3:9. For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. (NASB, 1995)

    1 Cor. 3:9. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. (KJV, 1769)

    [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Wrong on all counts Craig. Please explain these quotes from a Catholic bishop published in 1750:

    This from Alphonsus de Liguori's "Glories of Mary": [He was a Catholic bishop in the 18th century and a canonized saint]. Published in 1750, it has been the most celebrated Marian devotional work in the Catholic Church with over 800 editions in many languages.

    "With reason does an ancient writer call her [Mary] "the only hope of sinners", for by her help alone can we hope for the remission of sins. (pg 83) Isa. 43:8-11, Acts 4:12

    ”He fails and is lost who has not recourse to Mary.” (pg 94).

    ”Shall we scruple to ask her to save us, when the way of salvation is open to none otherwise than through Mary?” (pg 169)

    "At the command of Mary all obey - even God." St. Bernardine [Catholic canonized saint] fears not to utter this sentence; meaning, indeed, to say that God grants the prayers of Mary as if they were commands...Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent; though of course, it is always true that where the Son is omnipotent by nature, the Mother is only by grace. (Pg 180-82)

    "There is no doubt, (St. Bernardine adds) that Jesus Christ is the only mediator of justice between men and God; [the bad, harsh one] but because men acknowledge and fear the divine Majesty, which is in him as God, for this reason it was necessary to assign us another advocate, [don't miss that] to whom we might have recourse with less fear and more confidence, [more confidence?!] and this advocate is Mary, than whom we cannot find one more powerful with his divine majesty, or one more merciful [Rom. 9:15] towards ourselves...A mediator, then was needed with the [mean] mediator himself." (Pg. 195-96)

    "Be comforted then, O you who fear," will I [also] say with St. Thomas of Villanova [another lost Catholic saint]: "breath freely and take courage, O wretched sinners; this great Virgin, who is the mother of your God and judge, [again, the mean one] is also the advocate of the whole human race; fit for this office, for she can do what she wills with God; most wise, for she knows all the ways of appeasing him; universal, for she welcomes all, and refuses to defend no one." (Pg. 198). So much for Luke 13:2-5 and John 12:48.

    St. Anselm, to increase our confidence, adds, that "when we have recourse to this divine Mother, only we may be sure of her protection, but that often we shall be heard more quickly, and be thus preserved, if we have recourse to Mary and call on her holy name [Acts 4:12; Rom. 10:13] , than we should if we call on the name of Jesus our Saviour," and the reason he gives for it is, "that to Jesus as a judge it belongs to punish; BUT MERCY ALONE BELONGS TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN as a patroness." (Pg. 136-37) Isa. 55:1-9; PS. 31, Rom. 9:15.

    If God is angry with a sinner, and Mary takes him under her protection, she witholds the avenging arm of her Son, and saves him. (Pg. 124). Ex. 34:5-7.

    I supplied the Scripture to refute his false worship of Mary.

    Alfonsus de Liguori (1696-1787) was a principal proponent of the Marianist Movement, which glorifies Mary. He wrote a book entitled The Glories of Mary which is famous, influential and widely read. In this book, de Liguori says that Mary was given rulership over one half of the kingdom of God; Mary rules over the kingdom of mercy and Jesus rules over the kingdom of justice. De Liguori said that people should pray to Mary as a mediator and look to her as an object of trust for answered prayer. The book even says that there is no salvation outside of Mary. Some people suggest that these views are extreme and not representative of Catholic Church teaching. However, instead of silencing de Liguori as a heretic, the Catholic Church canonized him as a saint and declared him to be a “doctor of the Church” (a person whose teachings carry weight and authority).

    Furthermore, his book is openly and officially promoted by the Catholic Church, and his teachings have influenced popes. [9]

    Pope Benedict XV said of Mary that “[O]ne can justly say that with Christ, she herself redeemed mankind.” [10]

    Pope Pius IX said, “Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin... so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her.” [11]

    [9] William Webster, The Church of Rome at the Bar of History , page 87.
    [10] In the Encyclical Intersodalicia (1918). Quoted in Donald G. Bloesch, Essentials of Evangelical Theology , Vol. 1, page 196.
    [11] In the Encyclical of February 2, 1849. Quoted in Donald G. Bloesch, Essentials of Evangelical Theology , Vol. 1, page 196.
     
  17. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    If you are slandering seminaries by calling them cemetaries, you sir, are offensive. A call from God to preach is a call to prepare. Willfully uneducated ministers are prideful and arrogant.

    I call upon both you and SFIC to not take this thread into a KJVO debate.
    The OP was a simple question, and you both cannot be satisfied unless you convince us that all RCs are going to Hell.

    If you do not want to associate with the lost people of this world, have at it, but there are some of us that want to see people get saved. And to do that we must go to them, and take the good news of Jesus Christ to them.
     
  18. JackRUS

    JackRUS New Member

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    Not to mention... (but I will anyway)

    The Pope's whole reliance on the Virgin.

    —In his Encyclical Letter of 1849, Pius IX wrote: "On this hope we chiefly rely, that the most Blessed Virgin—who raised the height of merits above all the choirs of Angels to the throne of the Deity, and by the foot of Virtue 'bruised the serpent's head,' and who, being constituted between Christ and His Church, and, being wholly sweet and full of graces, hath ever delivered the Christian people from calamities of all sorts and from the snares and assaults of all enemies and hath rescued them from destruction, and, commiserating our most sad and most sorrowful vicissitudes and our most severe straits, toils, necessities with that most large feeling of her motherly mind—will, by her most present and most powerful patronage with God, both turn away the scourges of Divine wrath wherewith we are afflicted for our sins, and will allay, dissipate the most turbulent storms of ills, wherewith, to the incredible sorrow of our mind, the Church everywhere is tossed, and will turn our sorrow into joy. For ye know very well, Ven. Brethren, that the whole of our confidence is placed in the most Holy Virgin, since God has placed in Mary the fullness of all good, that accordingly we may know that if there is any hope in us, if any grace, if any salvation, it redounds to us from her, because such is His will Who hath willed that we should have everything through Mary."

    Mary called Co-Redemptress with our Lord.

    —"We had heard before, repeatedly, that she was the Mediatrix with the Redeemer; some of us, who do not read Marian books, have heard now for the first time, that she was ever our 'Co-Redemptress.' The evidence lies, not in any insulated passage of a devotional writer (which was alleged in plea for the language of M. Olier), but in formal answers from Archbishops and Bishops to the Pope as to what they desired in regard to the declaration of the Immaculate Conception as an Article of Faith. Thus the Archbishop of Syracuse wrote, 'Since we know certainly that she, in the fulness of time, was Co-redemptress of the human race, together with her Son Jesus Christ our Lord.' From North Italy the Bishop of Asti wrote of 'the dogma of the singular privilege granted by the Divine Redeemer to His pure mother, the Co-redemptress of the world.' In South Italy the Bishop of Gallipoli wrote, 'the human race, whom the Son of God, from her, redeemed; whom, together with Him, she herself co-redeemed.' The Bishop of Cariati prayed the Pope to 'command all the sons of Holy Mother Church and thy own, that no one of them should dare at any time hereafter to suspect as to the Immaculate Conception of their Co-redeemer.' From Sardinia, the Bishop of Alghero wrote, 'It is the common consent of all the faithful, and the common wish and desire of all, that our so beneficent Parent and Co-redeemer should be presented by the Apostolic See with the honour of this most illustrious mystery.' Spain, the Bishop of Almeria justified the attribute by appeal to the service of the Conception. The Church, adapting to the Mother of God in the Office of the Conception that text, 'Let Us make a help like unto Him,' assures us of it. and confirms those most ancient traditions, 'Companion of the Redeemer,' 'Co-Redemptress,' 'Authoress of everlasting salvation.' The Bishops refer to. these as ancient, well-known, traditionary titles, at least in their Churches in North and South Italy, Sicily, Sardinia, Spain."

    http://www.biblebb.com/files/catholic04.htm

    For more on this:

    http://www.coredemptrix.bravepages.com/

    "Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way." Ps 119:104
     
  19. TaterTot

    TaterTot Guest

    good post, Tiny Tim. I agree whole heartedly.
     
  20. standingfirminChrist

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    If you back up, it was neither I, nor Diggin who started the translations thing, so back that boat up where it's at.

    it was changed by Craig when he suggested I read some crazy jounal instead of taking the Word of God literally
     
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