Slavery, The Bible, and Infidelism

Ken,

The elimination of the segregated school systems, at the demand of the federal government, represent one of the greatest advances in human liberty ever accomplished in the United States. You say you are for freedom. To be consistent in that you must also be for the freedom of other races as well as your own. If you try to maintain that the segregated school systems should have been kept, so as to keep "freedom of association" then you will be arguing an uphill battle and considered by most to be just another kook. Think carefully before you embark on that losing argument.

 

And I maintain that there should be no government schools at all, that all education should be private, and the private charity should be used to help those who cannot afford to pay for an education. I reject an education system maintained at gunpoint by Leviathan.

 

Seeing how poorly students are performing, and how ungodly values are being taught, yes, I would say that government schools at gunpoint have been a real success - for those that advocate failure and immorality and godlessness.

 

And I maintain that there should be no government schools at all, that all education should be private, and the private charity should be used to help those who cannot afford to pay for an education. I reject an education system maintained at gunpoint by Leviathan. [/QB][/QUOTE]

I will never forget the time I heard Rev. Richard Wurmbrand speak. He told how the Christian students were the best students in the public schools under communism. I have personally met some of those who grew up under communism and they are some of the most committed Christians I have ever met!

It's really about getting out there in the battlefield. I wonder about how many of the parents who complain about the secualr schools provide an example of how to lead people to Christ and disciple them by doing it? It's not so much about what is taught but what is caught.

The battle is won or lost on the field not in the confines of a classroom.

When I was in a seminary class I was shocked when I heard a student tell the professor she had never given her testimony nor had ever witnessed to anyone before. Her dad was a deacon in her home church. She had gone to a Christian college. That tells me that her church, her parents, and her college had never prepared her to share her faith. She was planning to work on staff in a church and had never exercised that part of her faith.

 

Why would you not have preached against it?

How about I Timothy 1: 9-10 (ESV)
"understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who stirke their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, ENSLAVERS, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,"

Kind of amusing to me that enslavers follows homosexuality in view of recent happenings on the BB.

Karen

 

Karen,

The scripture you quoted is talking about menstealers that is kidnappers. Being a slave owner is not being a kidnapper.

 

Lincoln was entirely consistent. He thought that there was little he could do about slavery, in terms of freeing the slaves. And he thought that preserving the Union was more important than the issue of slavery, apparently. I submit that his ideas about slavery and race were more Christian than yours. As for God's providence making you subject to this that or the other, let me suggest that this is an assumption on your part. It is an assumption, which may not be correct, that God decides every last detail of life. Frankly, I think it is a silly assumption.


Frankly to believe otherwise that is that God is in control of the details of life is to not believe much of the scripture.

For example in Acts 17 when Paul berates the Athenians for their superstious ways. He quite clearly tells them that God has "determined the times before appointed" and set the boundries for our habitation.

And that in him that is God we live and move and have our being.

As well as the countless references of God scooping up the water and pouring it on the land and God sending armies (even of wicked men) to act as his arm. And God birthing wildlife and bringing the grass out of the ground.

And the fact that God has numbered the very hairs on our heads and that he cares for the sparrows and the lillies of the field and his children are more precious than much sparrows.

So suggest away about assumptions but you're absolutely wrong about this point.

And may I suggest that you drop the debate logic and put up scripture to back up your ideaology.

 

I must weigh in as I did in another thread.

American and English slavery was neither more nor less heinous that other kinds. Roman slavery was not all "kind and gentle." As with American slavery, that depended on the owner. Slavery has been with us since the beginning of history, AND IS STILL WITH US IN AFRICA AND THE MIDDLE EAST. Africans have been selling other Africans since long before the New World was even discovered by Europeans. Of the slaves who were sold to the New World between 1600 and 1888 (Brazil had slavery far longer than us), about 5% (that is, FIVE percent) came to the English colonies/United States. Most went to the Carribean and Brazil.

Not all of the effects of slavery were bad. The African-Americans have added a lot to our culture, and whether is it PC to say it or not, the poorest ghetto resident in the US is far better off than most folks in Africa. A good friend of mine, a black pastor, said this to me: "I've been to Africa, and I am glad my ancestor could not get away from the slave catchers"

Not all of the slaves were black. Many were white "indentured servants," who were supposed to work for 7 to 10 years for their freedom, but who were often cheated, and who often, after getting their freedom, were forced into wage slavery with their former masters. There are even records from 17th century Virginia which indicate there were free blacks who owned whites!


Personally, I am opposed to slavery of all kinds. That includes, of course, business owners and corporations that don't pay a fair wage, and who conspire to squeeze the workers in the US by exploiting 3rd world workers, who will work for five bucks a day and a bowl of rice.

My father was a slave to the coal mine owners he worked for, and he helped organize violent protests which broke those chains. In the old days, he did not even get paid in real money, but in company scrip (called "flickers"), which was only good at the company store. To get real money, he had to go to the company office in the county seat, and he would get 90 cents for each "dollar" in flickers. As a small child, I was not allowed to play with the children of managers, owners, or doctors.

Slavery has many forms, and is still with us today. I taught in an inner city high school for two years, and most of my black students were virtual slaves to their community leaders and to the drug dealers and other scum who rule their community.

 

This is one of the best observations in all the threads about North/South, slavery, etc. In spite of who was right or wrong (or whether both may have had some right and wrong, or both were all wrong), this observation on God's providence ought to give us pause. I am proud of my southern heritage (which doesn't mean I agree with everything they did); I hate to see historical revision on either side (which has been true in some of these threads); but the fact is that nations rise and fall within the providence of God - the South rose; the South fell. "This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes." (A little out of context, but, as a statement, true of so many things.) We need to "get over it." How anyone can deny this is beyond me.

BUT very little written in the "North/South" thread speaks to the issue of the Biblical directive of slaves to be obedient to their masters. It is a Biblical directive.

 

Dear Kent,
Quite often it is. Please see this link from Adam Clarke's Commentary on I Tim.

http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarke1tim1.htm

Karen

 

>>>>>>Karen,

The scripture you quoted is talking about menstealers that is kidnappers. Being a slave owner is not being a kidnapper.<<<<<<<<<

Well, the plain text seems to refer to enslavers. What basis to you have for thinking it does not mean what it says?

 

Plainly quoted in the KJV it says menstealers.

 

As for the commentary it's just that commentary.

 

You actually believe this drivel? The Christianity as practiced by the slave-owners was a false christianity.

 

ChurchBoy,

Funny what a proud statement you make.

 

No pride involved at all. Funny how you make assumptions.

 

Since you think the Christianity practiced by the slave-owners in the first century church was a false Christianity, then why didn't the Lord Jesus Christ or one of the apostles tell the slave-owners to free their slaves?